Counter - how much is enough and how much is too much?

A snowHead

I have to say I'm getting increasingly confused now about the position of counter in what we do. We have a couple of threads on "inside tip lead = bad", but it's a natural and required consequence of counter, and an excerpt from The Skiers Edge shows that it's pretty essential for high edge angles, but we've been discussing how square to the skis is a stronger position. Recently I had a coaching session where we were having counter drilled out of us.

And where should it come from - the waist or the hips? We've had statements strongly in favour of waist, but the the braquage exercise is all about twisting the femurs from the hips only.

And from another thread:

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

didn't your mate V8 do a (IMO) rather helpful thread in his "skiing myths" series on this a while back?

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GrahamN, Aim for none and you will probably end up with the right amount. IMHO actively staying stacked is like angulation, people think that they are making much larger movements than they really are.

Braquage isn't an exercise that a race coach will teach you.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

GrahamN,

Depends on turn type and terrain, i.e. short turn, steeps - lots, long turn, moderate - much less.

Hip

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rjs, that sounds a good recipe, and yes that Myths #4 thread is a good starting point. This question was partly raised by squaring (pun intended) the hip position being discussed with reference to tip lead, and the pictures of the degree of counter used for high perf GS turns, where there's way more than required to face the direction of travel, and past comments from people like little tiger and easiski with leading into the turn with the inside hip. Obviously there's no sensible numerical answer (and in no way do I want one Wink

) - but is there a way of telling when you've got too much? Until I got into this racing lark most of my "performance" skiing was focusssed on steep and narrow, so I naturally tend to overdo it everywhere else. I've no doubt I could get myself to be square to the line of momentum all the way along, but that's probably going to end up over-squaring things.

"Stacking", ah another contentious point...compounded by the fact I doubt I've met any two people who define it in the same way! Laughing

After all it is free

It seems to me that if you are trying to hack the purest line...then as close to none would be the goal..??

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GrahamN,

Simplest I can make it.

1) You will always need a certain minimum amount of counter in a turn. Counter aids pronation - so you need enough counter to aid with this. Pronation directs pressure to the inside of the foot - which is where you want it on your outside ski.

2) After that you will need to add sufficient counter to get your balance over that inside edge of the outside ski. Pronation also helps you balance and you will need whatever amount is sufficient for the amount of side-cut in your skis, speed, turn radius and edge angle you are skiing with.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Err, thinking about this while skiing the slightly fresh up the Grands Montets today - while playing with invert javelin turn-drills.

I think we're complicating it all again. If you are countering/angulating/tip leading/tip lagging too much it just feels plain wrong.

snow reports

GrahamN, hee hee hee!

Seriously, I couldn't get my head around the debate. And was lucky enough to be in "interesting" snow on the GMs. So I tried to work out whether I could deliberately feel for it and sure enough, increasing/decreasing tip lead/lag plus altering "counter" really just felt wrong when not skiing at my normal stance.

Now, I know there are thing I need to work on (I crouch Canadian style for example which - if for no reason other than aesthetics - I should correct) and allegedly my transitions are a little aggressive but in the main I do what feels good/efficient/& works.

It seems the same with this counter debate.

Having said all that - if you aren't already skiing with a reasonable degree of bio-mech efficiency I don't think counter or the lack thereof is going to be the biggest issue.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Martin Bell, Not crying off but the "simple answer" was a quote from V8 and i think quite a good summary and typical position wink

.

I did say it depends on context and i would think the ideal line in a race is to have as little counter as possible to keep speed up but agree fully with your point with SL turns..

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veeeight, interesting. I think/hope I am just rounding my shoulders rather than bending at the waist. Not sure.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

David Murdoch, from what I remember of seeing you ski, you're OK Wink

(yes you do round your shoulders, rather than bend much at the waist, but not by a huge amount). I've been developing a pretty much Canadian Crouch position during my snow skiing this winter - and it feels so much better (and is way more effective) than the upright model.

maggi, great minds think alike Wink

- but I was too much of a gentleman to post it.

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David Murdoch,

It only seems to work if you tilt the pelvis...and that is the easiest thing to lose or let slip.
If that happens you compensate by bending at the waist, IMV.
I have certainly seen it in my pics of late... Shocked

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Counter - how much is enough and how much is too much?

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