 Poster: A snowHead
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These holidays are run by the SCGB. However they are advertised to all comers (though non members have to join the club as a condition of going on the holiday). I therefore think it is relvant to drop some notes on my St Anton holiday in this section.
When I saw a Peak Experience Fresh Tracks holiday advertised as being up to club purple standard with Arlberg ski School instruction for 6 days - I thought that St Anton would be a magnet for rouhgy-toughy senior members with attitude, and that with luck, we might also get some good powder days (after all, whilst not in the off-piste section, the price did include transceiver hire). It was not so.
I went Peak Experience because, being over 60, bar touring holidays, that is all I am allowed to go on. If I were to go on one again, I would have to ask around very carefully indeed about the skiing standard to expect. I have been on 2 where the standard was as advertised. It was not on this one. The top group and instructor seemed to have skied together before and was not going to be broken up. At the end of the holiday I was taken to one side by the instructor and told I should be in a higher group. Whilst he did not know the standard of the top group, he said I should be in a group than moved faster and needed less stopping time than the one I was in. I'd told the rep that at the end of day one.
Whilst I did eventually chill out and made the most of the holiday in very pleasant company, as I had wanted to progress, for me it as well over a thousand pounds largely down the drain, and, more importantly, a precious skiing week largely wasted. What really hurt was, on a couple of classic powder days, the group was not capable of skiing in steep snow, let alone sustained pitches. Moreover, they tired quickly. On the last day, with beautiful powder, we stopped for an early, prolonged lunch, before going back to St Anton for end-of party drinks at a mountain restaurant.
Ouch.
The rep did downgrade some members - and was subject to acrimonious criticism. Perhaps similar experience had deterred other reps from grading as they saw the standard in the past.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, there'll always be a place for you in our off-piste group. 
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achilles, bad luck, that must have been very frustrating - especially lunching rather than skiing on the sort of day which doesn't crop up too often. Those holidays are not cheap. Maybe one of the top end specialist tuition outfits, like Snoworks, would suit you better?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Maybe one of the top end specialist tuition outfits, like Snoworks, would suit you better? |
I'd say better in so many different ways.
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From a more lowly (silver) viewpoint - no more Freshtracks holidays for me either, but Snoworks here I come (or maybe even Epic Ski Academy  ).
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Kramer, problem is, the snnowheads off-piste groupe rather spoiled me for this holiday. I was really up for it, attitude-wise.
Some balancing points about the holiday.
1. There were some really nice, interesting people on it.
2. Mark, the other strong skier in the group and I would do a final run from the top, and blow away the cobwebs. He was a real pleasure to ski with. He clearly was a touring enthusiast - and will be doing the Haute route with his son and a guide in a couple of weeks. He was happy with the holiday, since it meant he was skiing with his wife - a delightful lady, but not an aggressive skier.
3. We did a mini ski tour - just over an hour's climb. I found that with the mods to my boot, and Epitact, I could climb with not the merest hint of soreness - so it looks like day tours (and maybe more) could be on again. I lead the final kilometer or so in deepish powder. Never done that before. Mark said I was grinning like a Cheshire cat at the end of it.
4. The Sport hotel was the most luxurious skiing hotel I have ever stayed in, with superb friendly staff. I could not fault the place. But I would rather have been in Flaine's Aujon with up-and-at-it skiers.
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Hurtle, My standard at the start of the holiday was silver/silver, which I had been awarded a while back. At the end, the rep rated me silver+/silver+ - and bearing in mind the circumstances in which he had seen me, I didn't argue with that. I would just have liked the opportunity to have developed to, and been able to show, a higher standard.
Incidentally, the rep was a salt-of-the-earth, hard working guy who (not surprisingly) was a darned good skier - rather mountain-guide in style. I shared a room with him. He helped keep me sane.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, glad for you that at least it wasn't all bad. I too really enjoyed the first of my two Freshtracks holidays, again largely because of the leader, who tried exceptionally hard - and, for the most part, succeeded - in keeping the whole disparate group happy. But he himself wasn't thrilled at having to deal, on his own, with the extremes of ability and attitude that presented themselves. That wasn't a tuition holiday, by the way: what got me this time was the fact that I had expected to learn and improve and what actually happened - I skiied with last year's leader in my second week, he was the resort rep, so he was able to compare my performance between last year and this year - was that I actually got worse off-piste.  The gradings, IMHO, are in any event subjective, unsubtle and more or less useless. I've ended up with a silver- grading off-piste - same as last year, which I didn't deserve then and deserve even less now!
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I had a great Freshtracks holiday this year. Not PE - but with one or two over 60s on it. Of course the presence of Mr Aitken leading was part of the reason for it being so good. 
Hurtle, I went (as a 44 year old) on a PE holiday a few years ago. I think the poor reps found it quite traumatic giving the gradings out at the end. No one over 50 had their grade raised, and many had their grades reduced. There was a clenching of teeth and some unhappy looking punters.
Grading for this kind of holiday is essential but it is a shame when it does not work well. It is a shame there could not have been a more fluid rotation of the top group.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stoatsbrother, yes, I've heard and observed myself how upset people get if they're downgraded. Me, I have no delusions of grandeur - I'd rather not be over-graded! As both achilles and I seem to have experienced this year, when the groups are Freshtracks groupies and form their own unbreakable cliques, the system collapses altogether. I'd hope that at somewhere like Snoworks, a proper assessment gets done at the beginning and people are told to ski in a certain group whether their buddies are in that group or not; and also that, if a move between groups is required during the course, that duly happens.
What does that neh-neh smilie mean? Not too much basket-weaving (or whatever it was) then?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I'd hope that at somewhere like Snoworks, a proper assessment gets done at the beginning and people are told to ski in a certain group whether their buddies are in that group or not; and also that, if a move between groups is required during the course, that duly happens. |
With the Snoworks courses I've done there hasn't been any on-snow assessment, just a chat the evening before the course starts and clients are grouped accordingly. No account is taken of skiing with friends as far as I can tell. People are moved up or down a group if necessary, although this doesn't happen too often in my experience. I've been at the top and the bottom of groups with Snoworks and didn't feel that I was too- or under- stretched in either circumstance.
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rob@rar, great, thanks for info. I'd never even heard of Snoworks before joining snowHeads, it's brilliant being able to get such a lot of useful information (on such a lot of topics) before shelling out the cash!
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You know it makes sense.
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I really do believe the whole concept of Peak Experience is flawed. Why not let all but youngsters’ holidays be open to all – with a common grading? If older skiers (including me) are not good enough, their grading should drop. By all means have an over-fifties-social-skiers section for those with a lot of money who wish to stay in expensive hotels and maybe have a social-skier's grading they like – but let the rest of us seniors still have decent holidays with strong skiers?
I don't detect that is going to happen though. As there no longer seems to be much for me to do with the Club, I have just instructed my bank to cancel my standing order for my subscription, and advised the membership department. Accordingly I shall not be a SCGB member after October this year.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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achilles, Is it legal to discrimnate like this? Certainly seems to be very unfair.
I think that the job of grading people is a thankless task.
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Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, grading seems a bit subjective and maybe to do it properly the grading should be ratified by a second person, the same way that academic grading is done, but basically any one of any (upper) age should be allowed to ski based upon his/her grade, subject to fitness I suppose.
It seems that guided skiing with friends of a similar level is the best way to go
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| ....It seems that guided skiing with friends of a similar level is the best way to go |
Yes, in part, at least. The snowheads bashes also have excellent off-piste groups - and definitely no age discrimination. As for instruction, well, I have much to thank easiski for - and I have been interested in the Snowrks courses already commented on above.
Bit of a wrench leaving the SCGB which has given me so much in the past - but times move on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, The SCGB will allow 60+ on other than PE holidays if they have recently skied with and been graded by a rep, fitness is the key factor. I am 60+and was on a Freshtracks open to all off piste week in Les Diablerets, but I must say that the 3km walk out on a couple of days did rather tax my fitness. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Dypcdiver, Caroline Boileau has kindly dropped me a note on the age requirements - pointing out that the age limit is 62, not 60 as I had thought. Ouch - read the ******* manual, eh? Has that changed recently? I was so sure the limit was 60 that I did not check.
Further more the rules state:
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If members aged over 62 years of exceptional skiing standard / fitness/ stamina cannot find an appropriate standard holiday on a date to suit them in the ‘Peak Experience’ programme, the following are the circumstances when their booking may be accepted on a holiday outside the ‘Peak Experience’ programme:
-You are at the upper end of the grading for that holiday
-You have received this grading on a Ski Freshtracks holiday during the previous/current season
-The leader/mountain guide can confirm that your standard, fitness and stamina all appear to be suitable for the chosen holiday
-You have not sustained any injury or undergone any surgery or other period of ill health since receiving this grading that may affect your standard / fitness/ stamina
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Well the St Anton trip, on paper did provide an appropriate standard holiday. The trouble was that, in practice, the group was not up to spec.
Moreover, the rules kinda reinforce the club is not convinced that every over 62's grading is worth the cardboard it is written on.
And there are quite tight specs to meet - for example, how many will have received a grading during the last or present season?
Finally, I for one don't want to go cap in hand to CB for permission to ski with a group when my grading should, if honestly arrived at, show I qualify.
I am also bemused that for touring holidays, there is no age limit.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Send Mac46 out with them, that'll teach them a thing or two.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Kramer, just a bit.
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achilles, did you know about the Ski Club's 1-10 fitness grading? I certainly didn't. Have e-mailed them to find out what mine is!
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Hurtle, yes, chatted to the rep about it at St A. Must admit I forgot to ask what mine was.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
stoatsbrother, yes, I've heard and observed myself how upset people get if they're downgraded. Me, I have no delusions of grandeur - I'd rather not be over-graded! As both achilles and I seem to have experienced this year, when the groups are Freshtracks groupies and form their own unbreakable cliques, the system collapses altogether. I'd hope that at somewhere like Snoworks, a proper assessment gets done at the beginning and people are told to ski in a certain group whether their buddies are in that group or not; and also that, if a move between groups is required during the course, that duly happens.
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I use both Freshtracks and Snoworks and in fact have been on four Freshtracks trips and four Snoworks trips within the last two years.
Snoworks are superb and I would recommend them to any body as I have done before here, however the problems that both you and achilles refer to happen to some degree with Snoworks as well.
I have seen people not happy with the group they are in. I have heard people complain about others in their group whom they consider to be too slow. I have heard on a a previous trip that there was a "clique" who not only insisted on sking together but also sat on their separate table each evening! Snoworks although a young company also has it's regular clients, so the possibility of what you refer to as cliques developing, may worsen as the company gets older. On the last trip I went on, I saw two instances where couples who wanted to ski together, made life difficult for the organisers.
Snoworks are great but when you try and organise any group into similar standards there is rarely a perfect answer. That will apply I feel to any other company that tries to offer a similar service.
At this early stage I intend to ski with both Freshtracks and Snoworks again next season.
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richjp,
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when you try and organise any group into similar standards there is rarely a perfect answer
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I tend to agree.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| achilles wrote: |
| [And there are quite tight specs to meet - for example, how many will have received a grading during the last or present season? |
Well I am sixty two next month and it seems reasonable to me that Freshtracks should make the stipulation that someone of my age's grading is fairly recent. I work fairly hard at keeping fit although I enjoy the good life including a few beers as well. I feel that we all have to be honest and recognise as we get older, as active as we may be, that older people's fitness can decline quite rapidly if they do not put the effort in.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| richjp wrote: |
| ......... older people's fitness can decline quite rapidly if they do not put the effort in. |
Fine. In which case their grading should go similarly down the tubes. Equally, if someone pitches up who is not fit, s/he should be slung off the holiday's activity - which is provided for the rules. Given that, I can see no reason whatsoever for there to be an age distinction. Oldies who turned up over-graded and/or unfit would soon get the message.
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| At this early stage I intend to ski with both Freshtracks and Snoworks again next season |
At this early stage I am not planning another Fresh Tracks holiday; it would be difficult in view of me having cancelled my SCGB subscription renewal.
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You know it makes sense.
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achilles, btw - I have skiied with richjp and he would trash me any day...
BUT on the other hand - it sounds like you ended up in a bunch of skiers who were exactly why there is an age policy. A combination of lack of go-for-it, long-lunchitis and desire to stick at a grading from some years ago... very tough on you though. Perhaps a clause in the holiday T&Cs saying that people on a holiday would agree to be shuffled by the rep as required.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| achilles, btw - I have skiied with richjp and he would trash me any day... |
I've met him - and not only liked him but saw he had the physique of a racing whippet. I have absolutely no doubt he would trash me too, if he wished - and probably most members, regardless of age.
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| BUT on the other hand - it sounds like you ended up in a bunch of skiers who were exactly why there is an age policy. A combination of lack of go-for-it, long-lunchitis and desire to stick at a grading from some years ago... very tough on you though. |
Mabe there is a case of having a social over-50s section for those not too bunched on hard skiing.
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| Perhaps a clause in the holiday T&Cs saying that people on a holiday would agree to be shuffled by the rep as required. |
Well, effectively there already is. But difficult to enforce, particularly if the instructor of the group himself declines to downgrade any member.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Not my place to meddle but does anyone seriously ever get graded gold who is not pro/full time skier standard (and I don't mean BASI 1)? The criteria seem to be so high that any individual who can consistently hit that standard over a week across all the criteria is pretty good (zip line moguls on black slopes etc). When I saw the holdiays on offer it seems that there are no gold only trips so is it purely a device for grading people between groups?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, as a sort of standard calibration, I've just been graded Purple-Gold, narrowly missing Gold-minus  (and I still think I was hard done by  ). I'd say that brian is at least G-, and from the way was skiing this year he's in with a good shot at full gold (although I'd have to see him skiing breakable crust and heavy crap to be sure). Yes people do make it to gold without being full-time (and I'm still intending to get there if humanly possible), although you do need to be skiing quite a few weeks a year to do so. I have skied personally with two who have made the grade in their 50s, (and another in her 40s) one of whom I skied with a couple of years ago when he was P-G and who is now a regular on snowball's trips. Both of these though have taken later middle age "gap" years  . I think the standards are about right, as there are plenty of circumstances where a Gold would be happy where you would really not want to be as a Purple - and snowball has previously cited the lack of truly challenging trips (due to the lack of Gold-only groups) as a reason he no longer goes on SCGB holidays. The practical difference on Purple/Gold SCGB holidays is that yes it is primarily a group selection tool: P-G and above will be in the stronger group and that P+ and below will probably be in the weaker one (P+ may be in the upper depending on the strength of the party). Actually the two holidays I had with them this year had 3 groups, so there was a middle one of essentially P+ standard and another one of P and P- standard. I do think you have a point though that it's pretty easy to get your grade to P, but then it gets a lot more difficult to move it on from there. That may actually just be saying that P is given out too easily, but it proably also reflects the plateau effect that this is the kind of level that a reasonably talented skier can achieve on 2-3 weeks a year, but it requires something more to get above that. It's also the case that there are not a huge number of reps who are of a standard themselves to adequately differentiate, and so there'sa reluctance to grade above P unless it's extremely clear-cut. In the old days there was a specific test with top-ranked judges, but that was canned as it proved too difficult to get two such judges and suitable candidates in the same place at the same time to make the system work.
achilles, it looks like you ran into (what I see as) the main problem that can beset SCGB trips, insufficient numbers to make narrow enough groups? It sounds like you were an "in-betweenie" on that holiday, too good for the group you were in, but maybe not quite up to the next? But it does sound like there was a management failure on the part of the rep and the instructors. If the groups don't fall naturally the rep can go for a more dynamic solution, mixing people between groups on a day-by-day basis - although this possibly won't work well in an instruction-orientated holiday.
Re the rules for 60+ (the 62 must be a recent change, I always saw it as 60) on general holidays. I agree that the rule requiring you to be in the upper part of the grade range is silly. You're either that grade or you're not. The rule that your grading needs to be recent though does seem reasonable, although maybe there should be alternative ways of determining it - e.g recent vetting by a rep. The problem with self-grading is well known - we pretty much all self-grade too high (or occasionally too low - personality dependent). The one PE trip I went on (I was the baby of the group at the tender age of 45) had a lovely 59-year old lady who had been gold, but now freely (albeit reluctantly) admitted she was on the downhill slope. She was still a very tidy skier, lovely to watch, but no longer had the leg strength to ski to a true gold level. She had reluctantly come to believe that the rules were right. I think you do have a point though in that there does need to be some differentiation based on attitude - yes we can assume that all 20-something males will be wanting to tear up the hillside all day, and it's going to be a rare 60-something that can keep up with them, and maybe the majority of 60-somethings will be keen on a good lunch - but there does need to be something for those (like yourself ) that are still 20-somethings at heart. Actually I think there is - and it's called Snoworks!
The Snoworks trips I have been on (4 "backcountry" courses) have all had the advantage of mostly larger numbers allowing 6 groups (one course was only 4 groups), so they can get a narrower range. Contrary to richjp's experience, each of their trips I've been on has involved quite a bit of shifting between groups, even into the third day of the course. People have moved down at their own request, or been moved to groups more suited to their style, and possibly the organisers can be a bit more ruthless, having that extra bit of clout that being clearly in a majorly different league to the punters brings (not something that's always the case with SCGB reps). I've not experienced it much myself though as, other than for the first course I was on (where I was in three different groups in three days), I've pretty much been in the top group, although often there's been little difference in ability between neighbouring groups, rather more one of style or speed. I would say that if you are interested in moving your skiing on then Snoworks is much better learning environment than SCGB, but once you've got to where you want to be SCGB probably gives you more opportunities to use those skills for varied enjoyable skiing. I've had two absolutely fantastic SCGB holidays this year, and two brilliant Snoworks ones (although the weather made the first of those something quite different from what was intended).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| ..........achilles, it looks like you ran into (what I see as) the main problem that can beset SCGB trips, insufficient numbers to make narrow enough groups? It sounds like you were an "in-betweenie" on that holiday, too good for the group you were in, but maybe not quite up to the next? But it does sound like there was a management failure on the part of the rep and the instructors. If the groups don't fall naturally the rep can go for a more dynamic solution, mixing people between groups on a day-by-day basis - although this possibly won't work well in an instruction-orientated holiday. ........ |
Maybe - though I am not sure what my final grading would have been if I had been allowed s top-group slot to prove myself one way or the other. One of the top-group folk voluntarily moved herself from top group to bottom - so I think I should have been allowed a chance.
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| Re the rules for 60+ (the 62 must be a recent change, I always saw it as 60) |
Wish the rule change had been better publicised. I know we should all read the small print - but having done it once, how many of us do again? I'd have looked elsewhere in the holiday range had I known.
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| ...but there does need to be something for those (like yourself Wink ) that are still 20-somethings at heart. Actually I think there is - and it's called Snoworks! |
I think you may have something there. I can never see me having sufficient confidence in the Fresh Tracks system again to risk trying another week. Snoworks looks another matter - though for me there is the proven ability of easiski - albeit skiing with her limits me to one resort.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fatbob, I am graded P+ both on and off piste, but I suspect would be at the lower end of that grade. Fitness is very much my limitation. Of the snowHeads who were at the MSB, and who I saw ski, I suspect that Mac46 is the only one anywhere near gold both on and off-piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles,
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Incidentally, the rep was a salt-of-the-earth, hard working guy who (not surprisingly) was a darned good skier - rather mountain-guide in style. I shared a room with him. He helped keep me sane.
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I have passed on the above to said rep who has been a close friend for nearly 30 years. It was greatly appreciated.
We have spent many many hours in the bar in the Perdrix Noire together. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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gsb, yes, top bloke. I have seen somewhere the thought that the rep should have managed better. But in fact all the circumstances would take forever to write - and I don't think I could have done much better than he did. BTW, I had forgotten what a great, under-rated resort Flaine was (I went there 3 years on the trot, quite a few years ago).
Arno, I am coming to similar conclusions.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| fatbob, I am graded P+ both on and off piste, but I suspect would be at the lower end of that grade. Fitness is very much my limitation. Of the snowHeads who were at the MSB, and who I saw ski, I suspect that Mac46 is the only one anywhere near gold both on and off-piste. |
That's quite interesting. It would suggest to me that attaining a 'gold' rating is probably beyond most recreational skiers.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| fatbob, I am graded P+ both on and off piste, but I suspect would be at the lower end of that grade. Fitness is very much my limitation. Of the snowHeads who were at the MSB, and who I saw ski, I suspect that Mac46 is the only one anywhere near gold both on and off-piste. |
That's quite interesting. It would suggest to me that attaining a 'gold' rating is probably beyond most recreational skiers. |
I have skied with some ski club members who are rated gold. For the record I am rated purple myself.
I am someone who has played a number of sports reasonably well but have always had to work hard to get to a standard which I feel enjoyable. There are I believe in any sport and that includes skiing, people who have a naturally ability (b*st*rds!) that most of us can only envy. Those are the sort of people who can achieve a high standard, although I would agree that that high level will be beyond a lot of us.
Most of the skiers I rate highly have the ability to ski all sorts of conditions significantly faster and with confidence, compared to the majority.
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FAQ
s. There wasn't anything too sophisticated about that but you got an idea of what everyone was into from their posts.
