New Boots - Are Daleboot any good?

A snowHead

Ok, the ski season is over for me and I need to look at ways to spend even more money on ski gear for next season. New boots spring to mind as an obvious upgrade. I'm a reasonably good recreational skier, with no obvious foot/leg alignment issues. I've always previously gone for off the shelf boots with generic footbeds. My current boots are '06 Salomon Pro Guns, which I've had for the last few seasons. Although I've been very happy with them, they are perhaps a little on the loose side after packing down. The flex is also maybe a bit on the soft side.

I don't think there's much point in discussing the merits of specific off-the-shelf boots, but I would like to hear opinions regarding the more custom made options like Daleboot. I know I don't require any unusual alignment, but the only issue I tend to have with boot fitting is a wider than average foot. So would I be likely to get any significant benefit from a fully customised boot/footbed/liner over a well fitted standard model? Daleboot seem like an interesting option, but obviously expensive too. Are there any other custom options worth considering to get the best possible fit? I basically want something comfortable to wear all day, but close fitting for best performance. My current boots achieve the comfort level I want, but I suspect at a slight cost in performance.

A snowHead

Have only ever heard great things about Daleboot and I belive not sure but dont they have a shop in the UK now?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Dale boot is great if you need something for a problem foot, but from what you have descibed you have no need to spend £430 + on a boot before you consider the footbed, i know several people who ski in it and the new version is much better than the previous ones, you say your salomon felt soft, if it feels soft wait till you put on the dale boot!!!! their principle is that the boot is free flexing and does not need to be stiff, until you get used to it it feels very strange

i think unless you have major problems the best route is a good bootfitter to help you select the right shell, a good footbed, and possibly a custom liner if you want the extra performance

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CEM, Thanks, that's roughly what I was thinking too. The custom liner idea sounds interesting and might even be the answer as a replacement for my stock Salomon liner. I'm still not sure about the flex. I went with the Pro Guns partly because of their relatively soft flex as an experiment (after many years using various stiffer race boots). Although they feel soft when I flex them standing around, they feel fine while skiing. So I'm not really sure now how I would feel going back to a stiffer boot. One of the reasons I mentioned Daleboot was because of their adjustable flex system (VFF), which I thought might be useful. The cost doesn't bother me too much, providing there is something to be gained.

Ordhan, me too, but you know what these yanks are like for bigging their own gear up. I want to hear some views from a few hard nosed cynical Brits too wink

I think Lockwoods are supposed to sell them in the UK, unless that's changed?

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There is absolutely no reason to buy a Dale boot over any other as it is to buy any other over a Dale boot. In modern times there is a Bootfitter in every resort that, given a selection of shell shapes can offer you the right boot. Dale is a concept boot, it has no practical benefits over anything else on the market. The Acid test being World class skiers. How many Professional skiers use Dale in competition? Why? IMO, there is no footshape that isn't represented by the mainstream brands. If absolutely nothing else could work, then Dale maybe an option. I don't sell it and have never missed it.

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As usual before a ski trip (!!! Confused

) i am having questions about whether to buy boots rather than hire. I've done about 7 weeks skiing, and want a boot mainly for comfort and a bit of performance. Is anyone aware of shops around nottingham with boot fitting services, end of season sales, or should I wait until getting to VT and the EOSB?

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firefly, Buy boots. Where and when is up to you. There might be a couple of Animal Lovers around to help at the ESOB, they also have connections in VT so there are possibilities. wink

After all it is free

firefly, I'd def buy in resport if you can identify a reliable fitter there. Getting them tweaked is so much quicker and easier if you can just slide in to the shop.

Sorry Off Topic, but SZK is watching this thread......SMALLZOOKEEPER, will we see you in VT in April?

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I take your point, but I'm not surprised pro racers don't use Daleboot when they're sponsored by large mainstream manufacturers who will be supplying fully customised boots made to their exact personal requirements anyway. I only mentioned Daleboot because they appear to be one of the few manufacturers offering a coherent custom boot fit process for punters (if I'm understanding their blurb correctly).

So back to the mainstream brands, do certain manufacturers target particular generic foot shapes, or do they tend to make several models in different shapes? I ask this question because it seems whenever I go to a boot fitter, there are only 1 or 2 brands that make anything that remotely fits my wide foot shape. Last time at a respectable boot fitter, only Salomon boots were deemed suitable for my foot. So I was thinking that my choice of mainstream boots might be a bit limited?

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firefly, Definitely get yourself away from hire boots. Jesus, how can people even tolerate the concept of wearing someone else's sweaty used boots Puzzled

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uktrailmonster the mainstream manufacturers all make different lasts [shapes] years ago it used to be thought that certain brands were better for wide or narrow feet.... lange for example were always thought to only make narrow boots.....they now have lasts in the following widths 92mm, 95mm, 97mm,98mm, 100mm 104mm and i am pretty sure there is a 101or 102 in there also and that is just one brand

a good fitter should be able to find the closest thing then work with you and the boot to adjust it to fit, the aim is to find the snuggest fit for the bulk of the foot then grind or stretch the shell to accomodate the bumpy bits, beware of places that just selcet the first shell that comes to hand and pump the shell full of foam, if this happens the foam will break down pretty quickly and you will be back to square one...... foam liners are fine for the right person BTW it is just the way that
some places fit them

if you have a wide foot then there are loads of boots out there, head S13 [soon to diasappear, the 11 has been replaced by the S110] and the Atomic B120 are both pretty wide....but the question is is your foot actually wide or does it function wide because it is compensating for something biomechanical going on???

CEM, with so many different lasts available how many boot shops will stock a sufficiently wide range of boots to accommodate all the customers they have, with their many different foot shapes.

You know it makes sense.

As the proud owner of a new pair of Dale Boots, I can make the following comparisons with conventional boots:

Custom fit: unless your feet are a really weird shape, you can probably achieve a satisfactory result with conventional boots using a good bootfitter (see CEM's post above.)

Variable Forward Flex (VFF): the flex is controlled using an adjustable cable and spring mechanism in the rear of the cuff rather than relying solely on distortion of the cuff/shell. This allowed me to achieve the relatively soft flex which I prefer (courtesy of the Warren Smith Ski Academy) without compromising other aspects of performance such as lateral rigidity.

Adjustable arch support: the shell has an arch support with set screws to adjust its profile. Combined with the semi-rigid orthotic footbeds which I had in my old boots, this has really improved the pressure distribution on the bottom of the foot and given a much better feedback from the inside edge of the ski.

External canting: the canting adjustment on conventional boots (if any) usually alters the angle between the cuff and the clog. On Dale Boots, the canting is done by fitting differently angled toe and heel pieces to the boot so that the bottom surface of the boot is perpendicular to a line from the centre of the boot to the centre of the knee joint. This works well and ensures that your skis are flat when in the correct sking position.

Overlap cuff and liner: the liner has no tongue, rather it overlaps across the shin. Combined with the overlap design of the shell, this makes the boots very easy to put on and take off. It also makes it easier to remove and replace the liners.

So far I have used the boots on snow for one week and spent about 20 hours on the dry slope in them. Compared to my old boots (Salomon X Wave8), they are a revelation. They are comfortable while seeming to provide much more feedback from the skis and more precise edge control. Although it's quite possible that any well-fitted new boots would so the same. rolling eyes

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

CEM, do they then have entire multiple parallel ranges of narrow boots to suit from beginner to advanced, as well as medium width from beg to adv and wide fit beg to adv?

A snowHead

CEM, Thanks for the advice. I've certainly heard the Lange = narrow phrase many times over the years when visiting boot shops. What you say about manufacturers now offering shells in multiple widths makes perfect sense and it has always puzzled me why that did not seem to be the case previously. Or is it just a stock issue as rob@rar has questioned? I assume a specialist like yourself would order the correct shell size if not in stock? Perhaps a good reason to buy boots at home rather than in resort, where time is limited.
I do think my feet are genuinely pretty wide, but obviously that would be something to discuss in detail during the fit.

johnw, Thanks for the feedback on Daleboot, I was particularly interested in their VFF feature. I think I prefer a softer flex too, but all the associated cuff and shell distortion in conventional boots just seems so wrong (from an engineering perspective). I quite like the soft flex on my Sallys, but the distortion looks hideous, particularly when doing those 1 footed turn exercises in Warren Smith's DVDs! What do you think of the flex adjustment range on the VFF? Can you go from race stiff to very soft, or is it a more subtle range i.e. very soft to slightly soft?

This is all very useful info so far thanks.

A snowHead

uktrailmonster, I would rate the standard Dale Boot (the VFF) flex range as very soft to slightly soft. If you want stiff you'd have to go for the ST2002 model (I'm not sure that this is available in the UK). If you really want to race you'd be better of with a purpose built race boot.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

rob@rar, boot shops [ok good boot shops] will select from different ranges to suit different fits throughout the range they stock so they may only carry 3 or 4 boots from some brands and more from others ie for lange [as we started with them as an example] they may stock a comp series boot 97mm a fluid boot 100mm and a concept at 104mm the comp is much higher level than the concept, as the boot models go towards the upper end they tend to be narrower but not in every case...atomic make the B120 a 104mm width in a120 flex and full tilt make a narrow boot with a soft flex [but they are the exception] it has been considered that a lower level skier will want a big fluffy armchair fit whether they have narrow or wide feet, the other factor is the manufacturer wants everone who trys on their boot to think it is the best boot out there, that generally involves making wider higher volume boots as more people can put them on without pain...notice i didn't say they fit more people!!

this kind of answers slikedges question, most manufactures will run a range of a last eg atomic the B tech 104mm boot is available from a 60 flex or so up to 120 most of the narower stuff does not come dowm softer than 80 flex but even this is an improvement on where we were a few years back when only the race boots were available in anything resembling narrow

uktrailmonster, how i work is a little different from most places [and it works for me] we stock race boots from 3 brands and if these are not suitable we either come along to the local shop with you and sort out a boot there or if we don't think they have a suitable boot we can point you in the direction of somewhere that does have the best option and then go from there
BTW with a really wide foot the daleboot fitting guide would suggest moving up a shell size

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I've also thought about Dale. In my case this is because my left foot - size 10 - is a full size larger than my right foot - size 9. Because off-the-shelf boots come in matched pairs, I'm always starting with something that is one size too big (long) for my right foot. With Dale, if I undertand the concept right, I could have a size 9 for the right and size 10 for the left at no extra cost.

Then again, with Dales costing more than twice as much as 'normal' boots, I suppose I could just buy two pairs of something else off the shelf, and try to find someone with a size 10 right and size 9 left to sell my 'spare' boots to.

Any view from the bootfitters on whether having a boot one size too big on my right foot is any kind of issue?

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PaulClark, there should be a solution which will minimize the compromise in fit, firstly is your foot actually longer or does it just pronat more and become longer when weight is applied, if the later is the case then a well made footbed may solve the problem simply, it is also a lot easier to make a small boot bigger than it is to make a big boot smaller, it it a case of finding the boot shape which fits your foot best and balancing the fit between differnet sizes, it would be better to have one boot which is a bit small and make it bigger than it would be to have one that fits and one which was too big

BTW i am not sure that dale offer split sizes [they may do] but their boot relies on the liner moulding around the foot and holding it rather than the shell fit

After all it is free

uktrailmonster, I have the VFF, got them from Lockwoods. The fitting process involved 3 visits:
Visit 1: my feet were measured and found to be out of tolerance for the standard range of shells so they had to have some specially stretched in Kitzbuehl (Daleboot European headquarters). They couldn't do this at Lockwoods because it requires special tools.
Visit 2: about 10 days later, the stretched shells have arrived. The liners are thermo-fitted to my feet, the footbeds are adjusted and the canting is set.
Vist 3: after skiing in the boots I find that there is too much volume in the clog either side of my heel. This causes the heel to move sideways slightly when pivoting the skis (e.g. in braquage) which feels quite insecure. This is fixed by adding foam packing to the outside of the liner.

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CEM, you're right, I was somewhat peeved that the third visit was necessary Mad

. It calls into question how effective the measurement/customisation process is. However, the problem was fixed so everything is OK now Smile

.

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johnw, I was a bit put off by your 3rd visit too I must say. Given the overall cost of the boots and the custom fitting, I would probably have pressured them into replacing the clog or liner for a better fit, rather than using foam padding. That's the sort of thing I would expect after maybe a couple of seasons use, not after the first trial. But overall it sounds like you're very happy with the end result, which is really what counts.

CEM, Cheers, I'm in no hurry to decide exactly what to do yet, but would like to come over for a quick chat. I'm sure that would help to steer me in the right direction.

My OL had some Strolz boots made up for her in St Anton in Feb. She skied in them for almost a week and found them 100% OK, hope it lasts. A plan view of her feet was drawn and various measurements taken to make up a 'semi-bespoke' inner. These were popped into the appropriate shell, with the flex adjusted to her taste (don't know how), and the inner was foamed in SFAIK a conventional way. I don't see how the fit can be 100% spot on first time however many measurements are taken, although the inaccuracies may not always affect comfort or performance.

You know it makes sense.

richmond, Thanks, I'll take a look at those too if they are available in the UK. I would expect the fit to be a little on the tight side first time out. Feeling loose at that point would be a bad sign in my experience. But obviously it all depends to what extent.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

uktrailmonster, I believe that they are available in UK. The time scale was:

Day 1 after skiing (so the feet are at their 'sking volume' - I imagine they swell a bit with use): measurements taken, chat about what performance etc you're looking for.

Overnight: inner made to measurements

Day 2 morning: inner foamed.

Day 4 morning: ski in them.

A snowHead

About to find out if Daleboots are any good in just over a week.

Will post up a review when I get chance.

A snowHead

Throw in my tuppence worth. I was all set to get a pair of Dale boots for the start of this season. I just want everything as perfect as possible, so there is no doubt in my mind that I am not being held back in any way. I called a shop in the West Midlands who informed me they no longer sell them. The problem was people, like me, who perhaps have a little more money than sense, were coming in to the shop and saying 'I want a pair of Dale boots', rather than 'I want a pair of boots that fit me as perfectly as possible'. The Dale boots may not be the best fit the shop can offer therefore you end up with a less satisfied customer, who has forgotten it was them who demanded the Dale boot, refusing to consider alternatives. This disappointment is increased by the fact they have paid top dollar. The Dale marketing machine perhaps is working better than their fitting 'system'.

IMO there is absolutely no substitute for a good boot fitter, its just finding one that you can confidently rely on thats the problem. I was away with a guy last week who had new boots that had been fitted a large ski store in Glasgow and the fit was absolutely appalling. We went to a boot fitter in Samoen and the guy was a stereotypical frenchman who seemed hell bent on pissing us off.

In the end I kept my old boots, I realised they actually fit me quite well, despite my lack of knowledge when I bought them. When it comes to replacing them I am going to go to either CEM or SZK, regardless of the inconvenience, because nobody on here has a bad word to say about them.

Finally, I have been on the WS Academy course in Verbier too, and whilst it was a great week, and I learnt a lot, with a great instructor - Jordan, I am not totally convinced that WS's 'one size fits all' approach is totally sound, whether its boots, carving, bumps, steeps or powder. They chuck masses of the 'old school' ideas out of the window, at times I felt I was in the Woody Allen movie 'Sleeper' when everything you previously thought of us gospel has been disproved. Who knows, in a couple of years time we may go back to some of that. Having said all that I would endorse the WSA, if that makes any sense.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I've had Strolz boots (similar to Dale) they changed my skiing overnight. Over time the liner packed out and the ankles lost that snug fit. They were also pretty heavy. Use touring boots now and the shell fit is better (tourers are generally slimmer). As many others have said, it's what fits your feet best.

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Update - Dale Boots are not for everyone!
I got Dale Boots in 2008 (see this thread) and, once I got used to the loose fit was quite happy with them - they were very comfortable, particularly when teaching all day on the dry slope. After a year, the liners had packed out and were showing signs of excessive wear due to the movement of my foot in the boot. The boots also let in water and one of the rivets securing the integral cuff to the clog had broken.
I returned to Lockwoods and they supplied me with new liners and replaced the broken rivet. The liners were lace up ones which were thicker than the originals and I just could not get used to them. At this point, I decided enough was enough and returned to Lockwoods. After some debate, I was told that my feet were the wrong shape for Dale Boots and that I shouldn't have been sold them in the first place. Shocked

To their credit, Lockwoods replaced the Dale Boots with a new pair of Head Raptor LTDs which fit like the proverbial glove. Very Happy

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johnw, were you the person having pinch pressure at the top of the foot in the XWaves?

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Ah. Memory failure, sorry.

After all it is free

Comprex,

That's me, and one of the reasons I decided to give these a go.

We will see what the outcome is in a week or two Very Happy

Johnw,

I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with them. I fail to understand how you can have the wrong shape foot for a totally custom fitted boot? It does seem an odd thing for someone to say to you. But even better that you got a good fit in the end.

Over the years I have had Salomon SX93 (foam injected rear entry) and more recently X-Wave 9's. They were both good boots for a time.

It's a tricky thing to get right and I guess everyones feet are different.

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Shell Customization
The shell is then modified to accommodate all length, width and volume measurements, as well as to offset any pressure points caused by bone spurs, bunions, or previously broken bones, etc. At DaleBoot, the manufacturer makes all modifications for our partners and our customers. We use the original lasts, from which the boots were manufactured, to actually make the modifications. The original lasts allow us to maintain the integrity of the shell while performing the stretch, whether widthwise, lengthwise, or both. In addition, as our shells are produced from virgin plastic, modifications made to the shell remain for the life of the boot. All other manufacturers rely on their broad distribution chain to make limited modifications, to shells made from cheaper, recycled plastic, using a variety of tools developed for a broad range of products. This is a significant DaleBoot difference.

Help!!

New Boots - Are Daleboot any good?

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