 Poster: A snowHead
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In other words, an off piste day with the Arblerg Ski School.
David Goldsmith is quite right, you can pitch up to the ski school meeting point, check there is a spare spot, cough up for your day ticket (€80 - ouch) and you are in. You must have a shovel, transceiver and probe - or hire a set. They do not seem to be interested in avalanche cords.
The unwritten rules of the game are that you must be able to ski down the fall line off a black off-piste (usually not a problem) and be fit. Ah. I'll come back to that. 
So we ski across to Stuben at about Mach 1 down the pistes. Great! Hanging in nicely! Then up the lift and off down the Moroi valley - after some tips from Fossi about skiing spring snow. No problemo until the spring snows suddenly turns into heavy stuff, it gets darned steep, and the light goes flat. Suddenly I head-plant for England (good thing I was wearing a helmet  ) Go head first down the slope, but manage to get my feet underneath me and stop. Get up. As they could not have floated under the snow in this stuff, skis should be easy to find. Wrong. No sign of them. Forget about looking for the end of my tracks - I had fallen a l-o-o-o-ng way. Shout down if anyone can see my skis. They haven't. Bummocks. Go climbing up to where I thought I had fallen from, kicking into snow which increasingly seems to have little substance. No sign. Then someone below spots something black. I struggle over and up, and there is one of my beloved Missions. Great. Get it on - then look for other ski - eventually find it - and I'm away again. The snow is by now very heavy, but all is well. During the long pole out, I lag behind a little - but not by much. No big deal.
And so to lunch at Stuben. The party is very friendly. Range form about 14 to 35 - and, er, me. Somewhat older. 
Taxi ride back to St A (€4 each) then by bus for the Rendl bubble. Up as high a we can go by lift. And the onward and upwards. By climbing traverse and side-step and more climbing traverse and side-step and more ... well you get the idea. The 14-year old begins to whimper (literally). I am noticing that:
1. I am getting knackered.
2. The snow is very soft, no matter how high we go.
3. This means that I will be skiing all the way down thorough heavy stuff, whilst knackered.
4. This means I will probably run out of puff.
5. If I do, Fossi would have to call in a helicopter.
6. That would be embarrassing.
Eventually, off we go. I fall over. Fortunately, the 14-year old falls over even more - and one or two of the others do, so I am not holding up the party too much. The light goes flat again. Mmm. A tad steeper than I was expecting. Exciting.
Somehow, we all survive in pretty good order, to the bottom of the valley. My word it goes on and on getting out of it. And we go upwards too. No matter how I try, I lag further and further behind. A figure in the distance. Suddenly, we arrive at a piste and ski down to the bottom where a bus is waiting to whisk us back to St Anton. "Congratulations, you did it says one of the party to me, with a smile. "See you tomorrow?" asks Fossi. I explain I have had a memorable day out - but know I am no fit enough for this game. He grins, gives me a slap on the shoulder, and says "Top Man!".
Hey ho. Back to my normal group tomorrow. Well, I could do with some R+R.
Must get fit for next season.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| Bummocks. |
That's a great word!
Sounds like a fun day 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, actually, it was. Now that I have had dinner, I feel fine again. Wonder if I simply did not eat enough for something far more physical than I have done on the rest of the holiday. Well, it's a convenient excuse.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nice one, achilles! Those guys certainly do give you a run for your money. I remember one of the instructors hammering us through moguls fields after a day's off-piste ... which was excessive!
Sounds like that last run was into and out of the Hinterer Rendl, which I've always loved - did you go over a big ridge at the top of the chair to get into it? How far do you reckon you climbed? I'm surprised you had any uphill stuff later on, as you can usually ski out of it in a downhill traverse into the woods.
By the way, that book I recommended on the Jungfrau ski area by Rob Tillard is one of a set, another of which is on the Arlberg ski area with all the on/off piste runs. Maybe there's still a copy knocking around in St Anton?
[The issue of the lost ski is significant in skiing. We've discussed transceivers and cords a lot. I seem to recall that Ortovox made a unit that could trace a buried ski (with its own little transmitter) as well as another transceiver]
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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achilles, Off the back of the Valuga by the end of the week
Powder club is a great way to get some off piste action, I really like the Ski School, great lot.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO St Anton is a beautiful resort!
If you get a chance to ski on your own try to get over to Lech and ski into Oberlech.
R
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achilles, great report, thanks! I too like 'bummocks' and would also like the low-down on what's wrong with the Freshtracks scenario. But from what you say about R&R, it looks as though my prediction was fulfilled. Enjoy the rest of your time, whatever you decide to do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, glad you had fun - sounds more knackering than La Grave, even! Also keen to find out why you're not happy with SCGB set-up, as I've been contemplating going on their Zermatt trip in early May...
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achilles, Ha! I now see that you're intending to cancel your sub, which I had also been about to predict. Am thinking about it myself. Looking forward to the next instalment from you.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I thought arlberg schishule powder club , had 3? diff levels of groups you could join....... besides them have a look at pistetopowder who i have had some fab days out with....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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achilles, lovely bit of writing. Thanks for the effort.
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achilles, sounds a good day. The Powder Club guys were touting for business when I was there in Jan, but there was thin pickings for them as we were all on the Snoworks trip. Sounds like your afternoon started off in Hinterrendel, but the climb was to get into the next valley (Malfontal) so that you ended up at Pettneu? Lovely runs both of them, and the good thing about that run to Pettneu is that it's so empty. We did Hinterrendel several times, and Malfontal once with a skin up to get into it one side-valley up but I think another of our groups took your route.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| achilles, Ha! I now see that you're intending to cancel your sub, which I had also been about to predict. |
This is world-shattering news (for the second time). I missed this bombshell - where is it? And why is a submarine involved?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| David Goldsmith is quite right |
Now that was a bombshell!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As I said on another thread,
Piste Skiing makes for technically bad skiers & you normally only find this out when you ski on un-compacted snow. i.e Find it difficult to ski different conditions ( breakable crud,slush,POW, heavy, light).
Piste skiing does not give you any kind of cardio conditioning to ski un-compacted snow. If your not fit falling & recovering is something most first time Off Piste skiers find the most exhausting & sometimes frightening.
Guides know people will fall & do not actually mind as it gives them a rest.
Glad you enjoyed it
Stop The Brutal Grooming. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stanton, achilles is actually quite an experienced and ballsy off piste skier.
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stanton, is this didactic tirade aimed at achilles? If so, as Kramer implies, he won't need it. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stanton wrote: |
| Piste Skiing makes for technically bad skiers |
I'd contest that. Maybe inexperienced and hence slow or poor in mixed or deep snow conditions, but not necessarily technically bad. I've seen plenty of skiers who consider themselves experienced or expert and 'too good' to gain experience or enjoyment from skiing on pistes, but ask them to carve a turn on an icy pitch and they throw their shoulders and tails all over the place. Similarly I've seen piste-bashers who can carve beautifully down groomers looking technically superb, but throw them in soft and deep stuff and they're on their tails and in trouble.
As for training for technical skiing, Benni Reich and Ted Ligerty seem to ski technically pretty well, and I don't see them training often by hucking down couloirs or hitting the windswept.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| stanton wrote: |
As I said on another thread,
Piste Skiing makes for technically bad skiers |
Rubbish!
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| stanton wrote: |
As I said on another thread,
Piste Skiing makes for technically bad skiers |
Rubbish! |
So Bode Miller, Beni Riche etc etc are technically bad skiers 
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I think Stanton is simply pointing out that off piste skiing needs many techniques and on piste skiing does not provide that, so technically it does not prepare you for many situations, it provides a singular technique and therefore a bad technique for all round skiing in all conditions and less piste bashing may result in better 'all round' skiers
Touting the names of the best skiers in the world does not really add or detract from his comments as these guys can ski anything
Chill
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rayscoops, you think on-piste and off-piste skiing is fundamentally different?
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I don't think anyone is disputing that an experienced off-piste skier will ski off-piste and variable conditions better, but the idea that someone who sticks mainly to the pistes is a technically bad skier is questionable. It's horses for courses, different techniques and styles are necessary for different conditions, either on or off piste. In fact I'd argue too much off-piste and variable snow would prevent a skier getting the basics of good technique well grounded. Learn these first on-piste then go play in the soft/deep/variable stuff.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| stanton, achilles is actually quite an experienced and ballsy off piste skier. |
Agreed. And don't you just love the way achilles describes trails as 'sporty'? That's when I cross myself and pray.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| rayscoops, you think on-piste and off-piste skiing is fundamentally different? |
No idea, but better to learn in all conditions. I do think that skiing varied conditions makes for a better skier and perhaps a little less piste bashing is a good thing
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| Quote: |
rob@rar wrote:
stanton wrote:
As I said on another thread,
Piste Skiing makes for technically bad skiers
Rubbish!
So Bode Miller, Beni Riche etc etc are technically bad skiers
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Well Bode's technique is unique to say the least  These guys would ski anything they just ski the piste faster than the rest of us. Yes the techniques are diffrent but you need the basics that piste skiing teach you to be able to ski off piste good stance, posittion on the skis etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| No idea, but better to learn in all conditions. I do think that skiing varied conditions makes for a better skier and perhaps a little less piste bashing is a good thing |
I agree, a good skier will ski all the mountain well, on piste and off. But to say that piste skiing makes for technically bad skiers is just factually incorrect!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just to stoke the fire a bit then:
How do off-piste skiing techniques differ from on-piste skiing techniques? Is there only one on-piste technique?
Where do you draw the line between on-piste and off-piste, given that piste conditions can include ice, bumps, slush as well as nice squeaky corduroy; and off-piste can include ice, bumps, perfect spring snow, good powder, bad powder ...
Discuss...
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Poster: A snowHead
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offpisteskiing, skiing is skiing, with the same fundamental techniques applied in a range or blend of ways depending on the context. Some contexts will be a sterner test of that fundamental technique, but it's the same technique regardless.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, great report, really enjoyed the "bummocks" - is this akin to "hummocks" and merely another word for "moguls"?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rayscoops,[b]stanton[/n] so...a person decides to learn to ski. He/she takes herself off somewhere.
Day 1 - the nursery slope
Day 2 - easy blues in the morning, harder ones in the afternoon
Day 3 - easy - medium reds
Day 4 - hard reds & easy blacks
Day 5 - hard blacks and introductory off piste
Day 6 - La Grave.
Is that how you think a learner should progress? It does take time to develop these techniques, you know.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I think that there is a point to be made in that far too many people think that off piste skiing is for experts only, and leave it far too late to start to learn how to do it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| I think that there is a point to be made in that far too many people think that off piste skiing is for experts only, and leave it far too late to start to learn how to do it. |
 me waves back.
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Kramer, me waving as well.
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Kramer, Some of us started skiing 'Too Late' by your standards .... when I can ski like you 'on piste' then I'll seriously venture off ... I find 'General Fitness' a bigger differentiator then 'on-piste' .... but then my technique is a Firm 'Crap' on/in both 
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| Kramer wrote: |
| I think that there is a point to be made in that far too many people think that off piste skiing is for experts only, and leave it far too late to start to learn how to do it. |
i would encourage people to leave it as late as possible
that way, i'll get all the nice snow 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kramer, quite true. But I think that the attitudes displayed by our esteemed fellows above are partly responsible. I've only just started off-pisting - I've been skiing since 2002. Is that too late? I don't know. I wanted to be competent enough on piste, with a variety of techniques and moves available, to be able to cope with irregular terrain. It's fun, though, and I haven't yet killed myself or anyone else (though am currently lining up targets... ). Had I started off-pisting in 2005, I would have been a very dangerous skier to be near!
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FAQ
