Telemark edge and lead change timing

A snowHead

I had a great lesson with Richard today at Milton Keynes and had a bit of a breakthrough with my telemarking. Whilst my telemark turns are basically ok, I’ve been struggling getting from one turn to the next. The result was very “park and ride”, lacking any flow and absolutely knackering.

So, today, Richard decided to do a little turn “retiming”. The effect of which was instant and huge. And I reckon anyone who can alpine well could do this – so I thought I’d try to explain what he had me do.

Take two connected turns. Richard pointed out that at the start of the turn you are progressively unweighting the skis and in the second half of the turn you are progressively weighting them. Like so…

Now what I’ve been trying to do is what is shown in the next diagram…

…lead change before the end of the turn and edge change half way through the lead change. The problem being that I’ve been trying to initiate a lead change when my skis are near their most loaded. And half way through lead changing – when I’m at my most unstable - I’m trying to edge change. Not good.

His simple tip. Edge change. Then lead change. Like this…

…the result of which is that you start the next turn fakie. But with the inbuilt alpine skills that I’ve got that’s fine. The act of changing edges unweights the skis and makes the lead change a doddle.

The difference is, quite frankly, amazing. And far, far less knackering.

A snowHead

Sounds useful - can't quite get my head around the fakie thing after I've been trying so hard to get the little toe edging working on my back foot but I need to try on skis. Sounds like it should link turn to turn quicker.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Don't know if this helps fatbob, but...

If I was turning left then my right foot would be lead. With my right foot still in front then I flatten the skis and edge change (which is quick) to turn right. I'm momentarily fakie at that point. Then and only then do I lead change.

Interestingly, now I understand this, I'm seeing all sorts of stuff that says a good all mountain telemarker lead changes in, not across, the falline.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

way to advanced pour moi... was it one of the group sessions at MK? if so how was it?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

It was one of the "group" sessions skimottaret, but I was the only person in the group. So it turned into a two hour private.

You'll need to Register first of course.

If you try to lead change across the fall-line you aren't telemarking you are surviving...the only exception is when you are blasting down a wide piste and you are edging every turn without a loss of speed, even then you are pointing the turning ski (the downhill ski) into the fall-line. Pressure the lead ski with about 80% ( I don't go for this 50/50 crap, it just isn't possible) and get your weight over that lead leg to give you counter rotation. The weighting and unweighting is no different whether you alpine or tele. Try to get your legs as wide as possible...this might seem really strange but believe me your legs are never as wide as your think. Wide legs gives you much more stability and allow you to get the skis turning much more easily, weight transfer is much less challenging. Oh and remember to open up your stance, don't crouch, this does nothing for your breathing and makes you too low in the stance - remember too low = go slow, nice and high = you'll fly. Get this right and you will find your tele experience is much less exhausting and your turns leave pretty tram lines in the snow (unless you are in the pow-pow). Enjoy

Andrew

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

TelemarkKing, good tips

After all it is free

Thanks TelemarkKing.

I will, of course, be cursing you when I try to implement this in 9 days time snowHead

Sorry, I simply must disagree (however if it works for you, I apologise... wink

)

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Couple of comments that were made when I was having dificulty doing tele turns on track skis on our plastic downhillslope at HNOC.

It was noted I was not getting my front knee over my toe enough ( ie not enough ankle bend), and when I tried to get my front knee further forward I was then un-weighting the back ski.

So since then I've been concentrating on getting more ankle bend on the lead foot to keep the knee over the toe, whilst keeping the back leg tucked under me so I'm still maintaining pressure on the back ski. Seems to have helped a lot as Ive been finding it easier to tele turn on steeper stuff recently.

PhillipStanton,
I'll have a think about your first post and try it out next time I manage to get out on snow (when is this wind going to ease - blowing a gale at the moment and the forecast for the weekend is not good), as I think it may help my skiing.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Bung hole over back heel is the Allen & Mike's tip I believe. I bow to Telemarkking's experience - after all I certainly don't race FIS tele but 80/20 sounds like a squirrelly back ski even if thinking 50/50 gets you to 80/20 in practice.

Like the too low too slow tip - I'll use that as an excuse for being a lazy barsteward.

snow reports

Dave Horsley - it's made a heck of a difference to my flow (i.e. I've got some now!).

You know it makes sense.

TelemarkKing, - don't want to enter a flame war Smile

but for the benefit of the OP, I suggest reading an excellent article on technique here http://www.telemarktips.com/FSurmasStance.html which compares the "tall stance" which I favour against the "low stance" you favour.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Geoffers - fair play this is what a forum is all about afterall. However I am not a low stance skier - check out the photo posted by Kiwi1 on this site, doesn't look low to me. I actually don't like the low stance, in fact I believe this gives you very little control over your skis and often results in too much tip pressure and toe dip and that only ends one way - face plant. I don't have a problem with what people are saying but we are not talking about the position of the body so much, but more about where the body interfaces with the snow, the skis. This is where it counts. There have been many an article and paper, some even at Masters level that have looked into telemark stance and technique. Hauer (2003) concluded that there is no difference across the world in how the telemark turn is executed, forget about what the body is doing lets concentrate on what the feet do. Now I happen to know a few telemarkers, in fact I know some of the best in the world. They didn't learn their experience from books, they have evolved over years to become the best in the sport. NONE, I say NONE of them ski a 50/50 turn...it just is not possible. If you don't believe this then maybe you could appraise yourself of the work of Arno Klein et al on foot pressures throughout the telemark turn.

A snowHead

A snowHead

50/50 pressure, lead changes, go ski mank or deep crud and while the skis may not be weighted 50/50 you will be closer to this. At least I find i have to ski these conditions more in the back seat, more weight on the rear ski. The rest of the time it's go and enjoy and yes it's 70/30-60/40 but who actually is going to measure this. There are several balance/stance points in tele that's part of the fun and appeal. Now I have to go ski the 2" of heavy wind packed mank that fell last night, will I worry about stance or just point and play, I bet it's point and play. Very Happy

Ski with one fellow who is probably the only tele skiier who can out ski me on our mountain, his style is more upright and hoppy. My stlye lower with more power and speed. Is either more right or wrong, we have another tele skier ex clinician who keeps varying between our styles both have advantages and disadvantages just remember to have FUN.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I always have fun - this is a learning environment just want to share what I have learned over the years. This is fast track to fast fun. snowHead

But OK, take this example. You are skiing crud or mush or powder sure if you have your weight centred over the lead ski and you are leaning too far accrss the fall-line then your balance is all to cock, and you probably aren't carving or close to having your skis on their edges. If you are skiing in poor conditions you are probably more likely to sit in the back seat because you ae reticent to trust putting your weight forward as you would rather fall on your back bottom than fall on your face...right? It is psychological, the fact remains that better control can be executed over the driving ski (the downhill one) with more weight and pressure behind it. If you sit back on your rear ski you have very little chance of committing pressure and weight to the forward ski and so you control with the rear.

Question. Which is more likely to allow you more control?

1. An almost flat foot occupying more surface area of the ski (as is the case with the forward ski) thus allowing more pressure to be exerted across the ski length and maximum flex at the tip (the turning part of the ski!)

OR

2. A foot that is pivoted at the toe (as is the case with the rear ski) thus occupying little surface area and little chance of exerting much pressure to the ski?

I could get really boring and start talking physics here but I think you know where I am coming from. I know which one I choose most of the time - I will caveat this with 'whilst racing'. However, I take this theory and apply it in practice whether in the crud or in the deep stuff. So long as your skis are carrying enough speed to allow enough pressure to be applied to it then the flexion of the ski will occur when weighting the ski As I pointed out you don't need to do this to ski powder, edges are designed for icy hard pack, where skiing on the back foot will allow you little control and only get you into trouble - you can get away with this in the powder but nowhere else and still look good.

The worms are crawling from the can!

You need to Login to know who's really who.

My god. Telemark Epic. Crying or Very sad

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Yee-ha - into the fray... Smile

You'll need to Register first of course.

If you are skiing in poor conditions you are probably more likely to sit in the back seat because you ae reticent to trust putting your weight forward as you would rather fall on your back bottom than fall on your face...right? It is psychological, the fact remains that better control can be executed over the driving ski (the downhill one) with more weight and pressure behind it. If you sit back on your rear ski you have very little chance of committing pressure and weight to the forward ski and so you control with the rear.

I was never advocating skiing on the rear ski just that in HEAVY conditions I find that my weight ends up more equal on my skis than when on groomers or Pow. This was in response to the weight balance issue written earlier. As to where I'm likely to fall forward or back, well, yesterday my one fall was on a dbl blk was forward after hitting a hidden frozen ice ball great skiing till that moment.

I've also noticed that my ski buddy who rides taller and tighter than I goes down in the Heavy stuff more often upon initial contact. I assume more toe versus whole foot pressure on the front ski is part of the cause of his forward falls, and the lack of enough weight or any weight on that back ski. Again this goes back to more balanced weight distribution when skiing variable snow that due to it's inconsistent nature is causing the skier to move forward and back.

I've also raced and while I am no expert racer I have found most of the racers do not ski as well in the crud as I, however they sure can crush my times in the gates.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

OK - now we've sorted out our pressure distribution

I thought I'd return to the original posting, which was on lead-changing.

I've dredged up some shots taken on the Hintertux glacier in May 2004 (in some pretty cruddy, wet powder) where me & a mate were videoing each other. (You'll have to excuse the quality of the shots, as they were cut from a Quicktime movie, pasted into a word doc which I printed, and have subsequently lost all the electronic originals, so have just photographed the paper documents - gives it an air of something from the last century).

We were working on pole-plants as a timing focus, as my mate has the classic alpine skier's lead-change problem where he changes the lead into a parallel stance (where he feels comfortable) THEN plants the pole to initiate the turn and steps into a telemark stance and sinks into the next tele-turn.

The annotations & comments on the photos should show what we were trying to identify: Hopefully I've got the timing a bit better - planting, unweighting & lead-changing while I'm high, then sinking & steering into the next turn (although I expect to be totally shot down in flames now rolling eyes

)

Oh, and if you look closely, you can see that there is reasonably equal pressure on both skis by the similar amount of snow being thrown up by the 2 skis (ducks.... Twisted Evil

)

After all it is free

Thanks geoffers, these are really useful. (And they do have a lovely "air" about them snowHead

)

I see what you mean about your mate. I must admit that I'm having all sorts of problems pole planting. No matter how much I tell myself "pole plant when you change edges, not when your skis are parallel", I'm still only get it right 30-40% of the time. There must be heck of a lot of inbuilt muscle memory that I need to overcome.

Personally, I'd be more than happy with that second sequence. And, to my eyes, you can certainly see the edge change happening before the lead change.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Just to raise the spectre of the rear-foot weighting issue again.... rolling eyes

I've just returned from a weeks touring & tele-training in the Stubai Alps with BASI trainer & tele-guru John Eames. The mid-week avalanche danger curtailed our tour, so we ended up lift-served skiing some pretty steep runs in 40cm of wonderful pow. on the Stubai Gletscher, where John inadvertantly demonstrated the effect of an un-pressured back ski in the deep - the unweighted trailing ski being whipped out from behind him, with him ending up skiing on the lead-ski only with the back ski in a tip-drag/back-scratcher position.

He managed to ride the turn in this position without falling - cool Cool

, However, we lesser mortals experienced plenty of unweighted back skis with the inevitable consequences, but the mantra was as ever "equal pressure" in the turns....

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

And now a much better explanation of what I was trying to get at originally.

snow reports

Does John Eames rank amongst the best Telemark skiers in the World? He doesn't necessarily have all the right answers - the bottom line has to be you ski how you ski. The conditions vary as does the ability each will find their own balance point but I, a mere mortal, having skied tele for some years now at various levels do not subscribe to the equal pressure argument; I happen to know that the top ten telemarkers in this world agree with me - just so you know...and they probably ski day in day out throughout the winter and probably have done since they were knee high to a grasshopper - now who should we trust? Those that walk the walk or just go through the motions? If I knew how to post photos on here I would!

sorry - bad hair day Sad

You know it makes sense.

Still the same argument I'll stick with more 80/20-70/30 weighting on groomers and 70/30-60/40 in crud and powder, I'll also stick with the fact there are a variety of tele styles that work, find the style that fits you and have fun.

Had a much longer tirade but the computer ate it, oh yeah my credentials 16 seasons tele out of 43 seasons skiing 85 days so far this season.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

To protect the innocent - this only makes sense to those that need to know!

Oooh someone had a late night! Thanks for the sentiment though...Charmed I'm sure.

Maybe he is ranked higher in the World than me too then? Check http://www.telemarkski.org to be sure.

Pinhead - interesting credentials!

A snowHead

This whole thread seems to be similar to the alpine 'equal weighting' argument. Yes you can (and maybe should) aim for it, but it's never going to be really 50:50.

I try to get pressure on the back ski - and (more important - I think) get the boot flexed. But there's always more on the front/outside foot.

TelemarkKing, Softer snow = less pressure on front ski ? Harder snow = more ?

A snowHead

Ski

Thanks. Yes, in soft snow too much forefoot pressure will risk resulting in a faceplant as the change in pace whilst weighting the front ski is something that the upper body cannot recover from and send the weight over the ski fast and usually without a chance to correct. A bit like skiing over melted snow and getting that immediate decreas in speed which normally throws your balance. In hard snow the lead ski INHO is the gripping ski - not enough pressure and you are surely skidding the turn - hence little control over direction or speed

Help!!

Telemark edge and lead change timing

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees