 Poster: A snowHead
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skisimon, but what is the problem with an objective test, sitting alongside the professional judgement of Trainers? An objective test which is a pretty good examination of fundamental technique?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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plectrum, I think from another thread someone said that a Eurotest pass was broadly equivalent to 140-150 FIS points. The technicalities of how the times and handicaps are calculated are beyond me I'm afraid. In a World Cup GS race all top 30 finishers would typically be on less than 20 points.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 24-03-08 23:42; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Oh and another fundamental issue, skiing well at speed can be highly dependent on physique and overall fitness. Let's take a guy who loves skiing, understands everything about and has perfect technique but is as light as a feather or one who is fat but again passes every other module. It is not fair for either of these skiers and certainly not the former not to be able to pursue a living that they should be qualified to do. Hopefully you are going to tell me that there are weight & height categories for the speed test
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rob@rar, the reason I'm not so keen on this sort of test is that, as someone has previously mentioned, you could miss the time by just 1/10th of a second and fail; and the purpose of the test (to check that the instructor is a very good skier) can be done by means that are not so arbitary yet are also able to keep a very high level for passing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| plectrum wrote: |
| Hopefully you are going to tell me that there are weight & height categories for the speed test |
There's no such handicapping in racing, so I don't think there is a need for it in the Eurotest. Age is far more significant factor, and there may well be ways of accounting for that.
I'm not arguing that the Eurotest is perfect - I've already said I'd like to see some changes to it - I just think that a timed test of some kind has a place in the highest level of qualification for instructors, alongside other assessment of the various attributes required in a good teacher.
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| skisimon wrote: |
| rob@rar, the reason I'm not so keen on this sort of test is that, as someone has previously mentioned, you could miss the time by just 1/10th of a second and fail; and the purpose of the test (to check that the instructor is a very good skier) can be done by means that are not so arbitary yet are also able to keep a very high level for passing. |
Can't you just fail to make the level in all the assessed units that you have to pass? I did my Level 2 course a couple of weeks ago and one of the guys was a marginal fail and I'd guess that one of them was a marginal pass. You're always going to get people who are very close to the level required, and will fall either side of the line. Sure, it's not nice, but aren't all assessments the same? Surely amongst all the stuff you need to pass there is room for an objective test?
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rob@rar, It seems too that this thread is getting severely off track, Mr Butler had a suitable qualification for instructing and had happy clients, the lack of 'Euro-Test' was being abused not to ensure that he was of a sufficient calibre but to ensure that a non-French instructor was allowed to work in France. Perhaps this is why the ruling is very important. I would be interested as to whether why Mr Butler never gained the French equivalent standard.
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plectrum, I thought Simon Butler had an ISTD qualification? Are you saying that, getting back on track, the French legal ruling means that the Eurotest is no longer required?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have a friend who's an awesome skier and is able to teach up to a certain level. He sufferes stage fright and hasn't completed a CAPA run yet. Put him on a GS course when there's no pressure and he's simply sublime. There is no margin for this kind of thing, he needs a Sports Psychologist maybe, but a great instructor he is.
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rob@rar, Agreed there has to be standards and a division between pass and fail but it is only fair if the hardest parts of the test are also the most important parts to the discipline. Otherwise the entire learning procedure is not only unfairly weighted but wrongly so. At the end of it you should have the best 'Instructor' not the fastest, if the way it is set up does this then I have no argument although back to the topic I do think that the French should have to acknowledge and recognise other countries qualifications.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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plectrum, I think that sums it up well. Anyone any realistic ideas on the best ways to move this forward?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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plectrum, indeed, I've already argued that the Eurotest bar is set too high. But I would say that the best instructor has exemplary ski technique as well as great teaching abilities.
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rob@rar, I'm not too sure what qualification he has, i remember reading an article when this first became public and I read the news segment once a few days ago. I do not think this the ruling has anything to do with Euro-Test, but I do think that if you have a internationally recognised qualification which is suitable for giving ski instruction and you are a EU citizen then I can see no reason in the future why you will not be able to charge clients to teach them in France.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 25-03-08 0:07; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| plectrum, I think that sums it up well. Anyone any realistic ideas on the best ways to move this forward? |
I think we all meet in a resort on Wednesday and the fastest down the GS course wins the argument .... period.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| plectrum wrote: |
| I do not this the ruling has anything to do with Euro-Test, but I do think that if you have a internationally recognised qualification which is suitable for giving ski instruction and you are a EU citizen then I can see no reason in the future why you will not be able to charge clients to teach them in France. |
That's my reading of it as well, and I'm firmly in favour of a level playing field as far as recognition of qualifications are concerned.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, the French are incredibly patriotic and parochial, this like the AOC system in agriculture is just a way of protecting themselves. It probably all boils down to these are our mountains and so w should be the ones to teach on them, in a similar way that this is champagne and that is sparkling wine. What would be fairer is that it is all called sparkling wine but yours is called sparkling wine from Champagne and mine is called sparkling wine from Kent.
..... It ain't gonna happen in my life time, back to skiing and I very much hope the outcome of this ruling is that more British instructors can offer their services in French resorts but I also hope that the regulations and requirements are kept at a high standard so to ensure good teaching.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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plectrum, I'll drink to that!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm off to dream of snowy mountains and possibly Bode Miller-esque descents 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'll whip out the Cava then! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, plectrum, skisimon, It is a pleasure to see a discussion on this site that has advocates from many sides coming to something of a concensus and that did not dissolve into personal abuse. As young Mr Grace would have said "Well done everybody". 
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All countries do this. France is the worst. They pull this in Quebec as well. It's called "Stupid Protectionism for dumbass secular reasons".
What the French instructors/resorts are missing is the bad PR they are getting from this. Like this stupid kaka is going to make more Brits hire French instructors. On the contrary if you try to force people to buy your product quess what? They won't buy.
So the French certifying group will cost there own members money/jobs because it will be the other way around. Brits will be seeking out more Brit instructors than ever before.
Now some people will use this as an excuse because they just don't like the French. Others won't go seeking French instructors because they didn't like the way their fellow countrymen were cheated/abused by the the ski instructor governing society. Some won't go to France now because of the abuse of the police/legal courts over this matter and fear they could do the same to them while on vacation. But mostly it makes people think twice before coming to any French ski resort on vacation. That is sad IMHO because there is killer skiing there, and like any country most of the people are great caring people that I truly enjoy interacting with. And I'm an American.
Sometimes people just do not have the public relations business sense that the ski industry desperately needs. IMHO
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Anyone know if snowboard instructors have to pass a time trial test?
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What we need is a simple comparison chart for all the various standards qualifications and for the kermits to set their 'speed test' bar above the level where good teachers can instruct recreational skiers to a safe 'recreational' standard. By all means lift the bar significantly for those that want to teach above that level.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| plectrum, Are you saying that, getting back on track, the French legal ruling means that the Eurotest is no longer required? |
What does this ruling actually mean  The speed test is now part of ISTD so in my opinion it is still required, unless someone out there know's better.
What do BASI think of the court ruling?
It would be nice if the original poster came back and answered a few of the points raised in this thread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Axsman, Having had a brief introduction to 'race technique' at the PSB I can understand the need to be able to ski in control at fall-line velocities and even further, to be able to dissect and diagnose those that are attempting to do it, so the 'speed test' has relevance to teaching ability . . . but only above what is quite a clear level of customer desire . . . and to be honest, has nothing to do with off-piste' skills.
It is an anachronism that needs to kept . . . but in the right place and for those that need it.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Masque wrote: |
. . . but only above what is quite a clear level of customer desire . . . and to be honest, has nothing to do with off-piste' skills.
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I disagree with both those assertions. The skills you have to employ to ski GS well are exactly the same skills that novice skiers should be taught (albeit they will employ them at a lower level of competence). Developing sensitivity for the pressures built up in a turn, how to manage those pressures, how to blend edging, rotation and pressure, how to control your angle of release into the next turn, managing the timing of extension and flexion, etc, etc are all essential skills in GS as much as they are for novices AND as much as they are for off-piste skiing. Developing those skills to a high level in one complex situation, such as a demanding GS course, will improve your application of those skills in all situations. Of course, a timed GS run will do nothing for your mountain craft or off-piste tactics, but those are developed in other parts of an instructors training.
I've just spent a fortnight having it drilled in to me that improving my teaching of BASI's Central Theme (the progression from complete beginner to early parallel turns) will improve my personal performance on and off-piste, AND improving my personal performance will improve my Central Theme teaching. They use the same skill sets, which build in a progression, and changes to any area will change performance in the other areas. It took me a while to be convinced, but I've finally accepted that it is true and it is indeed changing the way I ski. It's exactly the same with skiing GS. I get the impression that people think 'racing' is somehow different from the skiing that novices do. It's not, it uses the same stuff just done better.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 25-03-08 9:11; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, You knowledge is FAR greater than mine but is it really true that it "it uses the same stuff just done better"? I was under the impressions (maybe wrongly) that racer's had a different approach in a number of areas. For example that at their speeds it was necessary to keep the weight more evenly distributed on the two skis rather than focus on the outer or downhill ski through the turns? Even if this is wrong, I still feel the fundamental assumption that because an individual might not be able to (quite) reach an arbitrary level of speed, they make a worse teacher than another who can ski faster, is missing the point.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Axsman, yes, I firmly believe that it's the same stuff, just done better. Much better, obviously. Yes, the ability to vary pressure distribution from leg to leg is important for racers, but isn't it also important for recreational skiers?
I don't know how many times I have to say that the speed test is only ONE PART of an instructor's assessment. Their ability to teach is equally important as their ability to ski well. Both are necessary, alone neither are sufficient, in my opinion. That's why the assessment of BOTH teaching and personal performance is an integral part at each level of qualification. I do not claim that just because someone is a good enough skier to pass a speed test it should be assumed that they will be a good teacher.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| . . I get the impression that people think 'racing' is somehow different from the skiing that novices do. It's not, it uses the same stuff just done better. |
At the MSB, talking to Christian, who teaches children racing, there is an extra element not covered in instruction I have had from recognised ski instructors - fore and aft movement - over the skis during turns.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
| At the MSB, talking to Christian, who teaches children racing, there is an extra element not covered in instruction I have had from recognised ski instructors - fore and aft movement - over the skis during turns. |
Do you think the ability to manage fore/aft movement isn't important in all skiing?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, I understand that the speed test is only one part of the assessment, but (maybe I have this wrong?) I thought it was obligatory to pass it? i.e. it is not possible to do well in other areas such as theory, teaching skills, ability to demonstrate technique or whatever, and make up for a slightly slow speed test score? If it were part of a weighted but 'overall' assessment package that contributed to a grade but could not (on it's own) result in failure wouldn't that be better?
I also agree with your point re pressure distribution, but shirley the degree to which this is mastered for world class racing, is in a different league to what is required on the nursery and blue slopes, putting it outside of a beginner/intermediates toolbox?
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| Axsman wrote: |
| rob@rar, I understand that the speed test is only one part of the assessment, but (maybe I have this wrong?) I thought it was obligatory to pass it? i.e. it is not possible to do well in other areas such as theory, teaching skills, ability to demonstrate technique or whatever, and make up for a slightly slow speed test score? If it were part of a weighted but 'overall' assessment package that contributed to a grade but could not (on it's own) result in failure wouldn't that be better? |
No, I don't think it would be better. I think the levels for all elements should be set appropriately, and all should be passed. I think there is a problem with the Eurotest at the moment as it is out of line with the other demands of the qualification which is why I have argued that the level of performance should be lower. Would you be happy if someone just failed to make the grade on 'matching teaching to customer's needs' or 'lesson flow and content'? I wouldn't be, neither would I want to qualification awarded to someone who just missed the level required for 'performance analysis' or 'technical understanding' or 'overall technical performance'. BTW, on the BASI course I just did the assessment matrix ran to a total of 40 individual grades on a range of teaching and technical aspects.
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| I also agree with your point re pressure distribution, but shirley the degree to which this is mastered for world class racing, is in a different league to what is required on the nursery and blue slopes, putting it outside of a beginner/intermediates toolbox? |
No, I really believe it does not put it outside the novice skier's toolbox. I only wish that all the fundamental technical elements of skiing had been taught to me from Day 1 so I was able to understand them and develop some degree of performance in them. Regrettably there were huge gaps in my ski instruction (which I would have been able to develop some skills in ) which still compromise my performance today.
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| Axsman wrote: |
WRT the technical elements, maybe some folks can absorb more 'early on' than others. My kids seem to pick things up (particularly physical skills) much more quickly than I do  Maybe for THEM learning what you are calling 'the fundamental technical elements' and I am referring to as 'the finer points' would have been a good thing. For me I'm not so sure, I may have just become more confused   |
You don't have to teach them in a technical way, in fact it is better if you don't in my very limited experience of teaching. But the instructor should be aware of the skills they are developing in their client and how best to get them to make progress. From the first hour of skiing I would look to develop a skier's sensitivity for pressures that build up in a turn, how to manage that pressure and blending it with rotation, fore/aft control, etc. I wouldn't tell them that is what they were learning to do, but nevertheless that's what I would have in mind. If a skier is using those skills from the start of their skiing career they stand a much better chance of being able to develop them to a high level and applying them in whatever ski context they choose in later years. Now the trouble is that I wasn't really aware of a lot of that stuff until the last few years (mostly because I used it, without much skill, instinctively), so teaching it would have been impossible. However, there are two things which have transformed my understanding of those fundamental elements and improved my ability to use them: skiing gates and being assessed on my ability to teach snowploughs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
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). However it's not what we think, but what the French/Euro Czars believe that will result in change. I do have a gut feeling that the present, arbitrary speed test is losing favour, or at least getting harder to justify.
