 Poster: A snowHead
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Thinking my nuts were a posing pouch size or two bigger than they are, I hired next year's Atomic SL12 Race skis (165) for Thursday. I was genuinely curious about how they felt in comparison to my SX10s . . . big mistake!
OK, so I spent Wednesday's rained off itinerary trying to learn to Telemark . . . which I heartily recommend to all you lardarse'd, boogeredknee'd, misanthropes . . . which is so counter intuitive to alpine technique that it definitely messed with my mind a little . . . but . . .
It was extraordinarily difficult to hook up the SLs into a carve. They had a 'sweet-spot' but it was incredibly narrow and took immense effort to stay there and once out of it they were hard, rigid, unresponsive, jarring, staves. But for intermittent 10 to 20 second moments of intense pleasure I had 5 to 10 minutes of muscle and bone aching misery. 
Was it worth it? Well I think so. It taught me that my control and skills need a lot more strength and refinement, but the attempt to ride those monsters added to my skills base and out on Saturday morning with my relatively softer SX10s, Red Leon can say just how differently I was skiing . . . point 'em down the hill and hit the accelerator. 
So . . . When we're contemplating updating our ski technique should we also consider using skis that require better technique for them to perform?
I'm limiting this to ON-PISTE skiing as I have yet to acquire any off-piste planking skills. But Dobz and I had some nice powder moments on board
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque, 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, and I thought this thread may have been about deciding what discipline to follow so that you can carry all your kit for free 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Masque wrote: |
| But I'll still say that we need better technique and much better fitness to ski a high-end product. |
I agree that a high end kit needs good technique to 'tame the beasts', but I think fitness is a secondary concern. I've had days this season when I've skied my race skis well, and days when I was out of control of them. All to do with frame of mind and how that affects my technique, rather than any differences in fitness levels.
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| Quote: |
age is an ongoing issue that needs fighting.
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And how do you propose to do that? Merely raging against the dying of the light really isn't going to have the desired effect, I fear. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| comprex, I think it may be more a measure of my nerve and lack of fitness by becoming stiff leg'd in response to input. I'll try them again. |
Pop down to the 160cm?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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comprex, I don't think the length is the issue, just their stiffness. Masque, were they race dept or "retail race". The race dept Atomic skis have a truly fearsome tail - as you may remember I found to my cost back in December - absolutely fantastic if you can stay on top of them, but they are probably the skis the least forgiving of mistakes I've ever been on.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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GrahamN, perhaps not, and perhaps there might be other balance issues here.
Seems a simple enough trial though, and a different result would certainly force us to examine the premise
"But I'll still say that we need better technique and much better fitness to ski a high-end product."
and consider
"But I'll still say that we need better technique and much better fitness to ski a product in an improper size".
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Is this a race slalom ski? If so then there is only one length.
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1, you sure? Race stock SL skis are usually available in two lengths, the women ski 155cm and the men 165cm.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Kitty, Behave 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This was only available in 155 and 165 and the tail marking graphics were to FIS compliance but I doubt that they were non-retail "race department"
GrahamN, Yup, on the odd occasion when I did lock into a full carve the tail bit and spat past my ability to stay in control of it. 
comprex, There's an argument that there is no improper size. On the ice at L2A I took out the Atomic SX12s in 182 also the GS12s in 182 and had a complete hoot on the pair of them with the SXs being the slightly stiffer and better tool for the ice. These were obviously not 'my size' but were superb to ski on and within my ability to ski them safely at what speeds can be achieved on the glacier, I don't know about steeper conditions.
I agree that there may be balance issues and with hindsight I still consider that it was a combination of (or lack of) technique AND strength that made the experience difficult . . . BUT, that also made it a positive learning experience.
I'm still asking the question . . .
When learning advancing techniques, should we consider using skis that require good technique to perform properly?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sideshow_Bob, exactly, one length for men.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Masque wrote: |
I'm still asking the question . . .
When learning advancing techniques, should we consider using skis that require good technique to perform properly? |
Yes, but only so far. I've found that using equipment (and the same applies for terrain) that requires you to perform near the limit of your ability is the best for development. This punishes you when you get it wrong, but still gives you the opportunity to get it approximately right, and lets you know quite clearly when that happens. Say 40% comfort, 50+% stretch and 5-10% punishment. When you get something that completely outclasses you (e.g. >30% punishment) you/I resort to defensive manoeuvres, or even worse loss of confidence that stiffens everything up (and not in a good way, Kitty ), which then compounds the problem. The more confident and gung-ho you are to start with the higher the proportion of punishment you can take - I'm pretty gung-ho to start with, so that punishment %age may be a bit high for general consumption.
By "punishment" I mean the turn goes wrong somehow so you have to engange in some kind of recovery gambit - so I'm suggesting a good testing ski is when you have to do this 1 in 10 to 20 turns. As you sort things out more of the turns move from the "punishment" into the "stretch" category. On that December trip I was getting into the >10% punishment category (race-dept Atomic slalom skis, me and deep snow is not yet () a match made in heaven) and it turned into a bit of a nightmare.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 17-03-08 19:43; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Masque wrote: |
I'm still asking the question . . .
When learning advancing techniques, should we consider using skis that require good technique to perform properly? |
No, I don't think it's a great idea. You can test newly developed technique by skiing in more complex conditions, but you can't "turn down" the challenge of a high end ski to enable learning to take place in an unchallenging environment.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Sideshow_Bob, exactly, one length for men. |
I disagree. I've seen men skiing 155cm slalom or 181cm GS race stock skis even if these are considered "women's" skis. The 155cm in particular are used by almost all blokes on dry slope/indoor snow racing (tighter gates/slower speeds) and the 181cm is used frequently for Masters' racing. These forms of competition have less stringent rules on the length of ski that have to be used compared with the standards for FIS competitions.
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Sideshow_Bob, I'm assuming Masque was skiing on snow.
I also use shorter skis on plastic - in fact I use junior skis in 151 cms (i'm female). But unless Masque is particularly light i expect 165cms on snow would be fine for him as far as length goes. I've never seen a guy using factory race skis in 155 on snow (exc. indoor).
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Sideshow_Bob, I'm assuming Masque was skiing on snow. |
But skiing at women's dryslope -speeds- which is the relevant consideration.
| beanie1 wrote: |
| I also use shorter skis on plastic - in fact I use junior skis in 151 cms (i'm female). But unless Masque is particularly light i expect 165cms on snow would be fine for him as far as length goes. I've never seen a guy using factory race skis in 155 on snow (exc. indoor). |
Heh. Think back less than 4 years. They all were until the rule change. And shorter, if they could get away with it through fancy 'measurement'.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| comprex wrote: |
| Heh. Think back less than 4 years. They all were until the rule change. And shorter, if they could get away with it through fancy 'measurement'. |
Everyone was skiing on between 150-160cm skis in the Salt Lake City Olympic Slalom back in 2002. I'm also pretty sure I saw James Ormond skiing to second place in a FIS race in Courchevel back in 1997 on a pair of 150s. First time I'd seen the stubby slalom skis and I was shocked at how short they were - he looked like he was on kid's skis.
Now I've never seen Masque so I have no idea whether he would be better off with a 155cm race ski, but I'm sure there are lighter guys who would be, just like there are plenty of people for whom a 181cm stock GS ski is a better choice than a FIS-legal 185cm or a 191cm.
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Masque, Excellent placement of the 'G' word back there a bit - well done for inventiveness.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| Learning proper practice and control techniques may not require more than an average age to strength ratio, but skiing or boarding in control at fall-line velocities requires physical strength and endurance. |
I couldn't agree more. Shorter turns more so as the greater change in velocity throughout the turn requires more energy to overcome. I would argue that a ski designed for a skier at a slightly higher ability than the skier will lead to the most improvement. However, I's also say stick with that ski until you've mastered it rather than keep tinkering...IMHO
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Masque,
Had a similar experience 6 years back, tried the 912 and 916 but couldn't keep on top of them. Am normally on touring skis most of the time now which are a lot lighter, softer and less sturdy than race skis. Took some Atomic (retail) race skis around 165cm out this time last year and had a blast - I'm 173cm and 71 kg. Various Austrian friends have picked up race stock skis but they normally have a bad tumble and hurt something trying to tame them. One said it was like trying to test a ferrari in a tesco carpark. Race skis are typically unresponsive at low speeds but come into their own once the tempo increases although they are typically a lot more work then non-race skis. Völkl offer a "powerswitch" on some of their skis so that the skier can cruise around most of the day and then flick the power switch when 'putting the pedal to the metal'.
Try them again in a couple of years and it will probably be a different story.
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