 Poster: A snowHead
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...not sure if there is a real point to this post, and it's my first scary foray into BZK, so obviously don't want to come across as a ficky, but thought I would share our recent experience of semi-private ski instruction in Zell Am See.
H and I are both 'intermediate' skiers, him better than me, and have been skiing two to three weeks a year for around 10 years, plus odd weekends when we can. We have been talking about getting a few lessons for the last few trips, but never got around to it, as we were having too much fun tearing around the mountain, discovering new resorts, skiing with less experienced pals, or being lardy.
Anyway, we were going to our own place this time, so had skied there before, and are likely to go again, therefore literally nothing to lose by having a few lessons. We teamed up with two of our pals and booked a private instructor from the main Zell Am See ski school (at the lift stations) for 2 x 2hr sessions. Ski school gave us a fab deal which worked out at around £10 per hour each, cheaper than joining a class of randoms.
Suffice to say it revolutionised my skiing, if not my life! Fab experience, probably the best ski related thing I have done in years*. Lots of tips and techniques covered, making life on skis much more fun and enjoyable for all concerned. Much less muscle fatigue and stress, ergo much more skiing, for the rest of the week  .
So to all those 2/3/4 weeks a year holiday skiers like us who have been wondering about getting a lesson or two, go for it, nothing to lose, so much to gain!
D
*Also in contention for the best ski related thing I have done in years was having a play on the new Icelantic test skis (Pilgrim and Nomad) at the SIGB ski test event in Saalbach, courtesy of kiwi1, was a blast - cheers guys! Won't attempt an equipment review as I am well aware there are much better people than me around to do that, (see the SIGB test thread), but still, fab day, - I thought I would feel intimidated skiing fat skis for the first time, but I didn't, I loved them, and was happy to jump off into the powder  , which I probably wouldn't previously have had the confidence to do (in public ) for fear of looking like an idiot.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Deliaskis, Well done. Your experiences mirror mine. A quality lesson can transform ones skiing. My advice would be to try and have a lesson on each holiday. Don't give up now.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Frosty the Snowman, will be doing, it really enhanced my skiing experience and thus the holiday as a whole.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Deliaskis, Frosty the Snowman, interesting.... every time I go I say "I'll get a lesson this time" - never get round to it, so still stuck somewhere on that plateau, happy, but with a sense that I'm missing out...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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red 27, indeed, I think I have said 'I'll get a lesson this time' for about the past 23 trips. Twas a defining moment to finally do it!
D
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Deliaskis Frosty, red, there are stories that cannot be readily adapted to film because they wouldn't fit a two hour format.
Ever wonder if there are instruction methods that cannot be adapted into 2 hour lessons?
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comprex, of course, but for those of us limited to just a very few weeks on the snow, it's pretty difficult to fit in sufficient tuition. I had a client who learned to ski in his 40s: he had a flat in Mottaret, skied many, many hours with a private instructor and became an excellent skier BUT he also had a hell of a lot of money. Thus, not only was he able to pay for a great deal of instruction, but he could take short trips to the Alps whenever he felt like it, as well as normal, longer holidays of considerable frequency. Furthermore, he didn't have many other hobbies in the UK. If all this applied to me, I'd be a lot more competent on skis than I am.
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comprex, I have no doubt there probably are, but after last week's experience, am inclined to think that two hours might be better than one or none?
Not quite sure what you're getting at TBH  ?
D
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Deliaskis,
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two hours might be better than one or none
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Quite
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Hurtle, everything in moderation... 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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abc, yes, trouble is that the speed with which I acquire new skills is also rather moderate. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Deliaskis, Hurtle,
what I'm getting at is that the 2 hour lesson seems to me an extension of the rudimentary 'top tips' quick-fix mentality: find context, grab low-hanging fruit, make client feel good about lesson, b'bye. Thus a string of them is really a repetition of the same, counting on the client's ability
a) to remember context
b) to resolve apparent context or terminology conflicts between instructors
c) to quickly resolve mis-understood instruction
d) devise a framework of understanding within which to fit it all so that contradiction is minimal
e) remember and internalise any random instruction that doesn't necessarily fit that framework, remember it until next season that is.
So, the natural extension of praising the two-hour lesson is to praise to the skies the three-day lesson with one instructor who has the time to impart framework, resolve mis-understandings, review basic skills that need honing or even learning and still provide a sense of progress, provide different context and resolve contradiction thereby, and, most of all, provide something that is easily remembered over the summer months (edit: not to mention a clearer path to self-discovery).
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 11-03-08 16:36; edited 1 time in total
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comprex, so what you're saying is that three days provide more benefit than two hours. I agree (and intend to do a week of intensive instruction next season. I learned notalot from this year's attempt at same. )
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You know it makes sense.
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comprex, so a 3 day lesson is miles better than a 2 hour one? That's in the No Sh*t Sherlock catagory shirley?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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red 27, snap, save for the politeness factor! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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red 27, thank you for understanding so fast,
a 3 day lesson is better than 15 days' worth of 2 hour blocks, yes, imho.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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comprex, as a matter of interest, what is 'a day's lesson' generally? How many hours? In all seriousness, I do think you are making a good point, by the way.
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Hurtle, less than 4 hours instruction total wouldn't really be a "day". Start in the morning, take an hour lunch and allow 45 mins to an hour of free skiing at the end := ideal imho.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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comprex, I have no doubt that a 3 day lesson is better than a 2 hour one, or 4 hours in my case, or 15 x 2 hrs, but in the context of my original post (whether to have a couple of lessons or none at all), it's not really all that relevant.
I do get your point re learning/teaching etc., but am not sure if you're also saying that I should actually not have bothered at all if that's all I was going to do?
D
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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comprex,
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45 mins to an hour of free skiing at the end
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yes, that would be relevant for me too - useful to be able to practise a little bit while the instruction is still fresh in the mind. Anyway, on that basis, 3 days=6 days of two hour lessons. It's an interesting comparison, into which comparative costs have to be factored too, for the average mortal. Still a good point, though. 
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comprex,
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am not sure if you're also saying that I should actually not have bothered at all if that's all I was going to do?
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Please don't say that it's better to do none than a little - that really would be terminally discouraging (and is what I thought you were saying in the first place.)
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comprex, having just come back from a week of all day intensive group training sessions i would tend to agree with you but.... if you are saying 3 days of individual instruction i would disagree as one on one tuition swiftly turns into "supervised practice" as the students gets overloaded.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, ah, interesting point. Did you have a good/productive time?
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Deliaskis, I certainly do not see that I was trying to be discouraging at any point. You will never, ever hear me advocate "no instruction" and I could have made the point that 2 hours of instruction is better than 15days of reading online "tips", but that would have confused the issue and gone off-topic fast as people try to defend or assault the very existence of BzK.
skimottaret, that is certainly possible, but I really consider that a question of the instructor, and instructor/student matchup.
Which brings me to my next point, imho it is the long-interval lesson as opposed to the 2 hour block that really allows top qualified instructors to demonstrate their worth, precisely because they can do more than provide tips and supervise practice.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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comprex, I agree that dispensing "tips" doesnt generally address basic fundamentals but even the finest coach or instructor can only impart so much knowledge until a student gets mentally or physically fatigued. The optimal blend is to ensure a good warm up, good coaching during the "activation" phase when the student is mentally alert and physically ready, and, then allow for a reasonable cool down period so the learner can absorb, digest and ask questions.
Each persons activation period varies of course... i for instance cant take much more than a few hours..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, very wise words, you been learning how to coach athletes or something?
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beanie1, i had lots of time to read the books on the way home, and, i actually believe it....
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You know it makes sense.
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Deliaskis, thanks for posting this - very useful, because there are so many people who just never seem to take lessons. It's like pulling teeth, sometimes, trying to get people who come to stay with us to take lessons. A first-hand report like yours should help encourage people to dip a foot in the water. Not many people are going to sign up for a week's intensive clinic (though money is the only thing stopping me doing so, the one I did was excellent) but if they think that just one or two lessons can make a difference, they might give it a go.
This evening, over dinner, I shall have another gentle go at persuading the beginner I have been skiing with today that he really, really, really, would be better off with a proper instructor. And to persuade his wife, who is a little more advanced, that she needs to take a lesson too, but a separate one. They had one together last year, on their second day here, after the beginner, on his first day on snow after a lesson at Milton Keynes, had spent the first day with me very happily doing snowplough turns on the nursery slope and I think the instructor pitched the lesson at her level, not his, and took them down a nice long gentle blue run - green really, all but a blue bit at the bottom, on which he lost control, had a very bad fall and completely wrecked his knee for the next four months. So he's a bit "off" instructors; I keep telling him he was very unlucky, and that most instructors are brilliant at picking just the right terrain for people.
However, I also think on-line tips can be useful. Or from DVDs like Warren Miller's. One simple, short on-line tip from Masque last year ("sag into your boots") transformed the way I rode a long front-edge track on my snowboard. From having desperately aching calves I could do the whole thing without pain. So, if people are prepared to put tips on-line, please feel free to do so - we can probably sort the wheat from the chaff.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hmmm, well I know exactly what I have learnt by posting this today...
D
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, my post crossed with yours, so wasn't a response to your input , and your first para was exactly what I was intending.
D
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Frosty the Snowman, come on - what did you learn then?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The main thing was how to ski when the going gets tough without it all going titsup.
How often do we ski in Poor light, lumps, bumps, steeps, poorer snow? Quite a lot. Learn to ski a bump and it all starts to fall in place. Quiet body, active legs, Fantabulosa
Austrian Fasching week, busy slopes, soft fresh snow, end of the day runs back to resort. Body pointing down the hill legs moving, much increased speed, far less wasted energy, and a massive smile
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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red 27, unfortunately the lesson was in Tignes. But the Apres in Austria was mint
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| comprex, having just come back from a week of all day intensive group training sessions i would tend to agree with you but.... if you are saying 3 days of individual instruction i would disagree as one on one tuition swiftly turns into "supervised practice" as the students gets overloaded. |
Ditto. I'm in the middle of two weeks of 6 hours a day plus 90 minutes theory in the evening. I've always found week-long classes to be very effective (if you have a great instructor) and tend to go against the grain on snowHeads that private lessons are best. But there's no way I could do an extended number of hours of one-on-one instruction. Too demanding mentally if you try to get your money's worth and fill all the time with teaching.
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rob@rar, I agree. I like the interaction involved in a small group, plus I can relate to my peers as they go through the learning phase. One on one, if you want a quick fix to a particular issue, other than that small groups every time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So what defines "a small group"?
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But there's no way I could do an extended number of hours of one-on-one instruction. Too demanding mentally if you try to get your money's worth and fill all the time with teaching.
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Do shorter hours then?
And don't think so much about "getting the money's worth". Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Just don't try to get the "money's worth" DURING the class.
Group lessons are great if you're in the RIGHT group.
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FAQ
