 Poster: A snowHead
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David Goldsmith mentioned something about bindings in the SCGB forum; it triggered me into a little research.
In his excellent ski injury site, Dr Mike Langran offers some comprehensive advice on self-testing. He offers similar advice on the BASI site.
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| The only safe and proven way to ensure that your bindings are set correctly for you as an individual is to get into the habit of performing a self-test on your binding every day. |
This article was written some time ago - but is food for thought.
I shall be doing the self-test in future, I think. I wonder if someone like SZK could comment on what is practical from a shop point of view.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think he mentioned that they can be tested by a machine. In my 11 years of skiing, this is completely new to me and I assume everyone else. You just say your bindings DIN number ( is that what it is called ? ), your weight and you are offered the skis with the bindings according to these parameters.
Because of the possibility of bindings not releasing on impact and the injuries that arise as a result, should the shops be adopting a more " professional " aproach to the guaging of bindings for their clients?.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well, there are a whole bunch of ISO standards, and googling around I have seen mention of machines. But I was rather hoping that someone like SZK, or maybe WTFH might comment further.
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I've just bought a Huber electronic binding torque testing machine so I'm sorted - & so can anyone else be for a small consideration  .
The Huber machines are an electronic version of the manual 'Safemeter' binding torque-wrench devices that theoretically all shops should, but hardly ever have. Or if the do have them, hard ever use them.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 18-07-06 20:40; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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spyderjon, Jon have you found any discrepancies when DIN settings have been tested.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Nick Zotov, Self test interesting, that is how I have set the bindings (approx Din 3-4) on the skis I use on plastic, slow speeds so less dynamic forces. On snow my bindings are much higher (Din 8 ) due to the higher forces involved, if I used the self test approach to adjusting my bindings I would pre-release constantly on snow.
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I don't think the problem comes with bindings being faulty, more with skiers providing inaccurate information. Look back in the past on here where there have been several threads about what people think their DIN settings should be, based on how they interpret a simple chart.
So, when a punter comes into a shop, they are asked their height, weight and skiing ability, along with being asked to hand over a ski boot.
People lie, or are unsure about their weight and their ability, height less so.
Also, people change weight, and maybe when they bought the skis they were set right, but they haven't asked to have the bindings checked or reset since.
Put it this way, I'm currently around 80kg. My bindings should be set to 8.5, according to the chart. If I drop 3kg in weight, my bindings should be reset to 7. That is a bit of a jump. And maybe I'm not actually as good a skier as I like to think, so the 8.5 should actually be a 6...
Bindings are manufactured to standards, and within their lifetime, I'd expect them to be within around 0.25 of accuracy, but there are many factors that come into play. As well as those listed above, there is also boot sole wear, and when you're on the slopes, how much snow/ice/dirt is in there as well.
So, yes it is important to have your bindings tested, but it is equally, if not more important to know, and be honest about your own height, weight and ability.
It's because of these things that many shops will make you sign a document which contains the information you have provided, along with what they set the binding to, that way it is easier to spot if there is a mistake, should that situation arise.
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I was taught, probably wholly incorrectly, to try to kick a foot (not your own!) out of its biding from the side. If it could be done not too easily, not too difficultly, all was deemed well. For forward release, the front of the skis were held down (by someone else's skis), and if the bindings released, just, when the user tried as hard as they could to lift their heel, using their weight, all was well.
As I say probably dangerous crap, but an easy check to do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Was at Xscape today without my own skis for the first time.
My own skis are set at DIN 7 1/2 and if i hire skis in at nevis or cairngorm they set them at 7.
I gave my details at xscape and got skis with a DIN setting of 6.
So i guess it must be in their intrest to set them lower as i was not going to encounter any difficult terrain.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| ....... I'm currently around 80kg........ |
Yeah right 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| II wrote: |
Was at Xscape today without my own skis for the first time.
My own skis are set at DIN 7 1/2 and if i hire skis in at nevis or cairngorm they set them at 7.
I gave my details at xscape and got skis with a DIN setting of 6.
So i guess it must be in their intrest to set them lower as i was not going to encounter any difficult terrain. |
Generally at indoor slopes I'd get mine notched back a bit as well - the main reasons being conditons, size and crowd.
The "snow" can be variable. The crowd can mean avoiding people and falling. But mainly because they are so short, you rarely get up enough speed to worry about a double eject at 60mph, cause most of the time if you get over about 15mph, you'll be the fastest person there!
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| ....... I'm currently around 80kg........ |
Yeah right |
I should correct that (based on the Soehnle scales in my bathroom), I am EXACTLY 80kg.
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You know it makes sense.
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Can't comment about other shops, but whenever I've bought skis, or had bindings remounted my favorite ski shop (Central sport Wengen) has always used a test gauge to check release loads, I've also seen them do this with hire skis, perhaps they're a particularly well set up shop I don't know, I think a lot depends on how good the shop and its staff are
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I do have some more things to chew over. But I have drunk too much bubbly tonight. I'll tune in tomorrow. :hic:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Speedtronics, speedtronics everywhere.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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spyderjon, Wintersteiger Speedtronic, 4/5 of the local&skihill shops.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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D G Orf, When I rented from Central, or changed skis on Mannlichen they didn't use a test gauge, just asked a booth to fit the binding and be done. All they did was set the binding based on the personal data you give them prior to renting. Same for my Sister... (Also started at Central, changed /several/ times on Mannlichen)
Good service from both Central and especially Mannlichen on the rest.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I used a Wintersteiger Speedtronic testing machine to test bindings that came into the shop for servicing. Gave a printout of the release figures etc.
I'm extremely dubious about that self check, I for one know that I can't release my bindings in a static mode, but know that they will come off when I need them to.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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And of course all this depends on proper binding care for storage, cleaning, lubrication and fitting the boot to the binding correctly before you even get to the testing stage.
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As for settings, assuming you have a track record of not falling, but are likely to ski some tricky slopes, another problem arises. What the setting itself should be. OTOH, there is a recommended scale. OTOH, you will be skiing slopes where loosing a ski would be a very bad idea. You still want it to come off if something goes wrong. But you very definitely do not want it to go off merely because you are skiing aggressively, more so than for most of the day.
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| Nick Zotov wrote: |
| As for settings, assuming you have a track record of not falling,... |
Then you're nto trying hard enough!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nick Zotov, We have a guide/chart similar to that recommended by Salomon. The checks take in account; Weight, height, ability, age and for me the most important factor BOOT SOLE LENGTH.
DIN is very vague, any combination of the above factors could be the deciding element of damage in a fall. Each manufacturer uses a similar, but not exact test. Each manufacturer uses different metals, no 2 springs will ever function exactly the same.
Skiing is/can be dangerous, for everyone like me whom lives for skiing and spends hours on the snow,without ever having been injured, there is a beginner whom shortly after they clicked into their bindings, snapped a cruicate.
However to answer your question, NO, we dont have a machine to test bindings, at least i don't think Piereot is a machine. However is highly skilled and experienced. If he is in any doubt the bindings go back. 
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I weigh 90kg. I ski fast on groomed and off-piste. I cannot see how I could safely do that without having din up to 10-11. I do not know much worse than losing the skis on fast speed in bumps on a steep section.
Mind you, I have also once broken my shin bone when I was young due to a malfunctioning back-binding which did not release... So I know bindings must work. But after a point in time, I think the unintended release can be equally damaging too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wear The Fox Hat, Don't think I fell all week skiing with easiski who took me on some interesting stuff. My fall in Aple D'Huez was on a moderate slope in snow conditions which seemed to present no significant risk  However, our group was regularly skiing slopes like The Tunnel - which had firm snow, and was deeply mogulled, with deep troughs from boarders side-slipping at 90 degrees to the fall line. I guess most experienced skiers would recognise that as a typical variation to be faced during the day. As demos said
| Quote: |
| I know bindings must work. But after a point in time, I think the unintended release can be equally damaging too. |
Thanks everybody who has contributed so far to this thread, BTW. The more I read, the more I realize I have to learn.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ronald, I'd guess they don't check hire skis every time, I only saw them doing so in December, so perhaps they were just checking at the start of the season, I know they have the test gear in Wengen, I'm not sure about up on Mannlichen
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, thanks. I am not saying you should use a machine, BTW. I really am trying to learn about this - and mentioned your name only cos I knew you ran a shop.
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You know it makes sense.
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Nick Zotov, I would happily use a machine, i haven't read all this thread, is there one? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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All this is beginning to make me think I should buy my own skis after all. Downside is that, realistically, I will be able to ski 2 weeks per year only, so I would not normally think it cost-effective to buy. But the best way of ensuring that the bindings are in good nick seems to be to buy my own.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Nick Zotov, at 2 weeks a year, your skis will have paid for themselves in 3 years (or so I proved a few months ago).
Here's a simple way of looking at it... say rental costs £50 a week. That means 6 weeks rental is £300.
If you buy a pair of skis for £400, and after 3 years sell them for £150, then you are £50 better off than having rentals, and you have the advantage of having your own skis with better quality bases and edges, that haven't been used and abused, and don't have big heavy rental bindings on them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ski wrote: |
I tested my Sally S900s on a machine last year. The front release was strongly affected by the wing adjustment. 
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Are you saying that whent he binding isn't set up correctly for the boot, then it won't release properly?
...cause that's exactly what I'd expect - that's why having the DIN set correctly is only one of the issues you have to consider when setting up bindings. (and also why it is dangerous to swap skis with someone who has the same boot size as you without adjusting the bindings)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm not sure if you meant what you typed, or I misunderstood.
The whole point about DIN (Deutsches Institut für Normung) is that it isn't vague - it's an exacting (worldwide) standard, so that no matter what brand of binding you buy - a DIN 5 is a DIN 5 across the board.
The appropriate DIN standard that we are discussing is:
DIN 7881-5 - Winter sports equipment; release bindings for alpine downhill skiing; adjustment scale for release values (also ISO 8061:2004)
SO:
A Type 1 Skier, weighing 76kg, 5'8" in height, with a boot sole length of 305mm will have a DIN release figure for his toe and heel piece of 5.5. This will equate to a nominal release force of 50Nm at the toe (twist) and 194Nm at the heel (forward lean).
No ambiguity. This is why I poo-poohed the self check above, I myself struggle to detect when my toe piece is being twisted at a torque of 50Nm.
On a binding release testing machine, we will test for a nominal of those release figures above, with a manufacturers testing tolerance being accounted for.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ski wrote: |
| .....But, it is important to remember that a correctly functioning binding, correctly adjusted cannot guarrantee release. |
Sure. But I want the system to have a good chance.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
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...so, maybe it would be a good idea to get a shop, or trained professional to set them up, since it is kinda important?
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er, yes....which is why I was testing then, after mounting on new skis 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So what should you do if someone who's completely unqualified, on all levels, takes your personal skis and without your knowledge and does 'who knows what' to the bindings to make them fit their hire boots . . . do you:
Call the Police or charge them 40€ for servicing?
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Masque, I wouldn't let them near my skis, and if I thought they had adjusted them in any way, I would demand that their testicles be lightly coated in chilli sauce before being fried, then removed from their body with a rusty spoon.
...then I'd start to get angry with them...
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FAQ
