 Poster: A snowHead
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OK achilles, you've made your (possible) point (again). Now lets carry on with the actual issues. Personally I like having David on here and don't want him hounded off. No doubt he has his reasons.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, i don't think the causes of avalanches have changed much in the last X years. our understanding of them has probably advanced so you might take the view that we (or some people - experts in avalanche science) are now better equipped to make a decision to do without kit
practices have changed. it is generally seen as highly desirable to take the kit with you when skiing off-piste. so maybe some risk reduction techniques have developed. OTOH, people have become much more aggressive about when they think a line is safe to ski. i think it's in Anselm Baud's book on Chamonix Off-Piste - there is a comment that in the old days, guides used to wait for 3 days after a snow storm before they would ski a steep line. if you do that today in Chamonix, it will likely be a mogul field. so I think DG has a the kernel of a point
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The emerging picture seems to be that SCGB reps do not - in fact - insist on the carriage of a shovel and probe for a day's off-piste skiing (except maybe when it's an off-piste holiday) ... which is one reason for questioning the guidance quoted at the head of this thread.
Have I got this right?
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David Goldsmith has raised an interesting question, judging by the number of responses posted so far (whatever his motivation may or may not have been). Perhaps those who don't like him could bitch elsewhere.
When (if) I go off piste, I take as much kit as I can get my hands on, confirming the 'all the gear, no idea' adage. The cost of hiring a shovel, probe and transceiver seems pretty modest, if you can't justify buying.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles Yes, many guides are as low as €50 / day for 6, but the ones I ski with are in high demand and €60 or more is normal. I have to book many months ahead for Zeb - when we ski with him he usually has parts of the next season booked up.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
The emerging picture seems to be that SCGB reps do not - in fact - insist on the carriage of a shovel and probe for a day's off-piste skiing (except maybe when it's an off-piste holiday) ... which is one reason for questioning the guidance quoted at the head of this thread.
Have I got this right? |
which post gave you that impression?
i don't really have anything to do with the SCGB but the one rep I have talked to was carrying a ruck-sac full of transceivers for use by his groups and this was in Alpe d'Huez so not exactly the off-piste capital of the Alps
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| snowball wrote: |
DB €80 0r 90 per day per person is a bit high for a guide, unless there are only 3 or 4 of you. It is more per person when booking into a group as a single because they may not get a full group, but if you make a group booking of 6, it should be more like €60 each (sometimes a bit more, often less). Most guides don't like to take more than 6, though a few regularly take 7. 6 is a good economical number and, for all but the very steepest slopes where to fall may be to die, is safe (on slopes like that some guides will only take 3 clients.).
For a group of 6 for 6 days skiing I normally expect to pay about €350 each. |
It's the going rate in St Anton when one person joins a group, up to 8 in the group inc. the guide. When a bunch of people book together as a group it's cheaper as you say. Generally stick to Austria are other countries cheaper or is it just a case of big resort prices for St Anton?
David Goldsmith,
If a ski instructor or guide tried to take me or people in the same group offpiste without the right safety equipment I'd drop out of the group. It's hard enough to find people with the right equipment never mind fishing around blind. Why should one carry equipment to help locate and dig out the others but this not be reciprocated? I know of at least one case where a ski instructor took a group off-piste on a "moderate" slope but then got hit by an avalanche caused by others. Nobody had avalanche equipment and people perished.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 5-03-08 13:39; edited 1 time in total
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Arno, David was refering to shovel and probe and not transcievers. I think he may be right ( perhaps he was going by me) but I haven't skied in a formal way with a resort rep for a while. My recent experience is with SCGB holidays only.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My mother always used to say better safe than sorry. I know it's different for me, I rarely ski on piste, notch up 80-100+ days per year and have a strange idea of adventure but I sleep in my beeper...
The expense argument is a little silly but I have had it back fire on me recently. Skiing isn't cheap, if you're going to take risks then you should be equipped for it.
There are a million anecdotal examples of avalanches that happened when they "shouldn't", in N America they have had at least 5 slides on to pistes this year alone.
I have often said I can't justify the expense of an ABS bag but the Mrs pointed out the other day she'd rather have to cut back on a couple of nice meals outs than me, so I think I just got the OK to spend even more money of avy gear.
I wouldn't ski with anyone off piste that doesn't carry, and know how to use, beeper, shovel and probe. Sorry, a few quid of your money isn't worth the risk...
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I'm sorry David Goldsmith, but I completely disagree with the whole thread of your argument here.
Yes, it's possible to ski off-piste responsibly. But only if you have the capability to properly assess then dangers. Few off-piste skiers I see on the mountain seem to give any regard to conditions. Certainly no novices are equipped to assess those conditions.
Off-piste is a great place for novices to develop their skiing. But they shouldn't be there in first place (with or without arva gear) if they haven't a clue about the dangers. And we shouldn't be encouraging that behaviour.
| SCGB wrote: |
| “Anyone venturing off piste should be carrying a transceiver, a shovel and a probe" |
IMHO the SCGB advice is pretty reasonable. If you don't know any better then you might, just might, be put off doing something you don't have the judgement for. If you do have the judgement then you'll probably have the kit anyway.
IMHO Arva gear is not expensive when compared with the total cost of skis, boots, clothing. An average, good quality jacket costs as much as a transceiver (£200+).
And hiring Arva gear is less per day than your average recreational skiier happily pays out for a round of drinks at lunchtime.
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| The general avalanche risk in the Alps has been low for some weeks (until the snowfalls of the last few days) so it would be interesting to know - in practice - what guides, instructors and SCGB reps have specified during those weeks of February 2008. |
My experience two weeks ago was that, whilst the general risk was low, an awful lot of slopes had slid and were relatively unstable. There was a lot of stuff I was unwilling to ski.
But let's be honest. Who listens to the SCGB anyway. It's like asking a teenager to listen to their parents...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Arno wrote: |
which post gave you that impression [that SCGB reps don't require shovel and probe]?
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I think one or two reps have contributed to this thread, Arno, but haven't been clear on this.
snowball mentions the SCGB off-piste holidays above, which seem to be more specific in terms of equipment pre-requisites.
The Club has a comprehensive page of guidance on skiing with reps, which mentions ...
| Quote: |
| Ski with the rep to ... find some fresh powder |
... but does not specify that you must carry a shovel and probe to take part.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| parlor wrote: |
| I sleep in my beeper... |
Is that so Mrsparlor can find you? 
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| Quote: |
| Who listens to the SCGB anyway. |
Me! Hence hiring equipment on my first off-piste trip. I'm not a member, and I know some people don't like them, but it's not a bad first port of call for novices. I remember shopping for my first ever ski trip - I didn't know about the SCGB then, but have since seen their list on what to buy - I wish I'd had it, I didn't have a clue what I needed!
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You know it makes sense.
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Probe too?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| vetski wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Who listens to the SCGB anyway. |
Me! Hence hiring equipment on my first off-piste trip. I'm not a member, and I know some people don't like them, but it's not a bad first port of call for novices. I remember shopping for my first ever ski trip - I didn't know about the SCGB then, but have since seen their list on what to buy - I wish I'd had it, I didn't have a clue what I needed! |
Good point. Well made. I was just being provocative. I take it back. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PhillipStanton wrote: |
| But let's be honest. Who listens to the SCGB anyway. It's like asking a teenager to listen to their parents... |
For some the SKGB isn't a club it's a religion. For them everytime the SKGB spreads it's knowledge (c/o someone else) it's like Moses coming down from the mountain with a mutli-stone ammendment to the commandments. 
| SCGB wrote: |
| “Anyone venturing off piste should be carrying a transceiver, a shovel and a probe" |
I'd add "and know how to use it". (note to self must get some more avy practice in)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowball wrote: |
| ........Personally I like having David on here and don't want him hounded off. No doubt he has his reasons. |
I think so, too.
| richmond wrote: |
| Perhaps those who don't like him could bitch elsewhere. |
I am sure they will, if he chooses to bitch elsewhere. I know he's closed off that option in a couple of forums - but there is always TGR.
Arno. Well, I wasn't skiing off-piste as early as DG, and I very much doubt if I have your experience. Even so, I things have changed a bit in the 15 or so years I have been skiing off-piste. Firstly, because skis have improved, far more people are being tempted off-piste early in their skiing career, but with little mountain experience. One cannot assume the skiers - and boarders of today have the experience and knowledge prevalent in off-piste skiers 15 years ago, let alone in the 60s and 70s. So they are more at risk, and need simple comprehensive guidance.
Which leads to the next point - your assertion that the causes of avalanches not changing. I think you may be wrong. The mechanisms have not changed (though knowledge has improved) - but there two new related cause factors. The simple increase in numbers of off-piste skiers means the risk of being trapped in avalanche from someone above you is increased (I don't know if it is possible to prove that statistically, though) and that is further exacerbated by inexperienced skiers an boarders triggering off avalanches by entering higher up a slope where experienced sliders simply would not have gone in the first place.
I more that agree avoidance is the best strategy.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DB wrote: |
David Goldsmith,
If a ski instructor or guide tried to take me or people in the same group offpiste without the right safety equipment I'd drop out of the group. |
What if the avalanche risk was 1 or 2? If the guide or your colleagues were not equipped to your standards would you still drop out?
| DB wrote: |
David Goldsmith,
Why should one carry equipment to help locate and dig out the others but this not be reciprocated? I know of at least one case where a ski instructor took a group off-piste on a "moderate" slope but then got hit by an avalanche caused by others. Nobody had avalanche equipment and people perished. |
Of course it's good for buried people to be dug out - and a tragedy when they might have been saved - but are we personally duty-bound to carry the kit to achieve this? If I go swimming I don't expect the people around me to know how to carry me ashore if I get into trouble. If I did expect it I'd do a lifeguard course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Surely another element is not to ski alone off piste? There's no point in carrying the gear if you're the one who gets buried (other than the transciever). I think in general it's correct advice though. If you go off piste you are in some way accepting there is a risk and you may have to play a part in the rescue of others so having the equipment to do this is important.
Went on an All Terrain course recently and we were provided with all the above, transcievers were tested daily, instructor had an ABS. Reality was, we were told, that in the event of an avalanche only our fellow skiers (in the group) would be in a position to recuse and save any of those buried. Waiting for a 45min heli rescue was not going to help anyone buried since survival rates after 15min reduce dramatically.
Anyway, skiers like having the gear - I see no reason why anyone who went off piste a lot wouldn't want to add all that stuff to their kit.
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This is a bit of a rehash of an old topic and from what I can see DG's fundamental objection is to the impact on his pocket.
Are the holy trinity a magical solution to every risk? No.
Is it possibly to ski offpiste in Europe without all 3 within personal acceptable risk parameters? Of course
Should the defualt "rule"/guideline be to carry them? I can't see what potential advantage there is to anyone (beyond the 1 of cash saving of purchase) to argue against it.
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If more people buy the equipment in future it might get cheaper.
laundryman, it is a private matter for parlor where he chooses to insert his probe at night.
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| snowball wrote: |
| laundryman, it is a private matter for parlor where he chooses to insert his probe at night. |
Yeah. Rude man. It is collapsible though, makes it much more comfortable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
David Goldsmith,
If a ski instructor or guide tried to take me or people in the same group offpiste without the right safety equipment I'd drop out of the group. |
What if the avalanche risk was 1 or 2? If the guide or your colleagues were not equipped to your standards would you still drop out? |
When it's level 1 it normally means there isn't enough offpiste snow to ski.
Level 2 yes. I do a fair bit of ski touring on the weekends (mostly in level 2 conditions) and everybody in the group carries the equipment or they don't go. The avalanche level is just an overall indication for a wide area, conditions on different slopes/faces will vary. You only know what condition the snow is on a particular slope/face when you get there.
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Of course it's good for buried people to be dug out - and a tragedy when they might have been saved - but are we personally duty-bound to carry the kit to achieve this? If I go swimming I don't expect the people around me to know how to carry me ashore if I get into trouble. If I did expect it I'd do a lifeguard course. |
The two aren't directly comparable, you don't need equipment (and probably not training although I acknowledge that this helps) to save someone from drowning. So 15 poss 30 mins to find someone without equipment and then dig them out with your bare hands is OK?
Once I was doing a tour with a friend and he said "This shovel is heavy I doubt I'll need it today anyway and you've got one". I pointed out that we carry a shovel for the others benefit. He said "that isn't fair my shovel is heavier than yours". I pointed out he should be glad that his friend (me) had spent more on a lighter shovel for his benefit and he should put his shovel back in his rucksack.
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achilles, maybe we can agree that the science hasn't changed but the human factors have. if you're skiing in very low risk conditions, it is highly unlikely to be a problem if someone is skiing above you
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
The general avalanche risk in the Alps has been low for some weeks (until the snowfalls of the last few days)
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Last week in the Portes du Soleil, the risk was 2, there hadn't been any snow for 2/3 weeks, and as the temperature rose there were wet snow avalanches everywhere - some of them huge!
To add my thoughts into the debate, every professional guide I have ever skied with has always said "never go off piste without shovel, probe & transeiver". So I don't (or I try not to). Even on days when I thought I would be piste bashing, I have often been tempted away for a hike into something a little more adventurous.
The problem is, the above equipment needs to come attached to experience and sense. I know a lot of people who go out with a transeiver on and they think that that makes them invincible. The whole point of avanlanche safety is avoidance. If you or anyone in your group has been avalanched, then that usually means something has gone horribly wrong with your route planning (accepted that there are occasionally situations that even the most experienced guide couldn't foresee).
I also agree with the points made above about having the ability to save someone you weren't skiing with. It all comes down to personal choice but I would feel horrible if I saw someone getting avanlanched and couldn't do anything because I didn't have my kit.
Out of interest, do Ski Club Reps take people off piste? If they do, is that legal in this day and age? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought that SCGB reps were just good skiers with no professional training who happen to know an area quite well...
The final point I want to make is that there is quite a popular mis conception that being slightly off piste, or being on a popular off piste itiniary is somehow safer than being deep in the back country. In my opinion, it is that mindset that leads to lots of accidents. Take today for example, I was going to do a traverse into an extremely popular off piste bowl. People do this all the time and don't really consider it to be off piste as it is so close to the patrolled area. However, on the way in there was quite a lot of wind blown slab which I wasn't happy about so I called it off and we went elsewhere. Looking out of my window now, there has been a huge slide down this very same bowl. And that is after not too much snow. So really in my view there is no "slightly off piste". You are either off piste or you're not.
Anyhow, it's a thorny topic and that's my twopence worth...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yes, SCGB reps do do a certain amount of off-piste leading. But it has been extensively discussed on another thread (when off-piste rules for reps were changed recently).
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 5-03-08 14:58; edited 1 time in total
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| achilles wrote: |
| ... things have changed a bit in the 15 or so years I have been skiing off-piste. Firstly, because skis have improved, far more people are being tempted off-piste early in their skiing career, but with little mountain experience. One cannot assume the skiers - and boarders of today have the experience and knowledge prevalent in off-piste skiers 15 years ago, let alone in the 60s and 70s. So they are more at risk, and need simple comprehensive guidance. |
In principle that's a very valid viewpoint, and I agree that you need clear communication to cut through a complex and controversial subject.
So what should that guidance be?
People are acutely conscious of general avalanche risk - they read about them in the papers and hear explosions echoing across the valleys - yet they become reckless in the face of temptation. How many of them are aware of the avalanche risk scale of 1 to 5, and the availability of that data in the resort?
So maybe that's the first thing to inform people about, impressing that '3' can be high risk.
As for personal equipment, the communication is only useful if it's relevant to people's brains, pockets, self-interests and goals.
I'm not aware that ski resorts, ski patrols or ski schools advise people universally to carry a shovel and probe when skiing off-piste. Instructors, for example, will introduce powder skiing to a group without any particular notice or guidance to rent/purchase avalanche kit before starting.
Am I wrong?
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Wed 5-03-08 14:57; edited 3 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| Snowmonkey wrote: |
| .....Out of interest, do Ski Club Reps take people off piste? If they do, is that legal in this day and age? .....[ |
As you are a low-count poster, I will assume that was asked in innocence, and not as a troll. I will also assume you are not a sock puppet. Search this forum for 'SCGB reps off piste' (all the words). You'll find a bunch. save the rest of us from going round that again. Not a bad idea to search a forum you are new to before posing a question.
| Quote: |
| The final point I want to make is that there is quite a popular mis conception that being slightly off piste........ |
Again a well discussed topic. Try searching 'little bit off piste' all the words.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Interesting topic.
Some clarifications about SCGB. My experiences of skiing with the club in recent years. I am not a rep.
1) Skiing on predominantly off-piste holidays - everyone has to bring shovel, probe and back pack, transceivers provided to those who don't have them.
2) Skiing on predominantly on-piste holidays - everyone provided with transceiver, group leader and at least 2 others given pack with probe and shovel. however usually other people have the kit as well.
3) Turning up to ski with a rep in USA/Canada. No insistence on transceiver unless planning to go into unpatrolled/back-country areas.
4) I Haven't turned up to ski with a resort-based rep in Europe for a few years.
I think it is possible to disagree with David Goldsmith without it being a personal attack - although sadly he may construe disagreement as a personal attack...
Some key issues for me:
1) As David keeps mentioning his off-piste experience - it is reasonable to ask where and when that was. Perhaps what is felt acceptable or appropriate has now moved on? We know he hasn't skied in the last year.
2) The minute you go off-piste you are entering an environment where others, whether you choose to or not, may feel obliged to come and rescue you. You may also inadvertently trigger an avalanche onto others. I think, to put it mildly, it is impolite not to carry the gear.
3) The expense is not huge for a committed and active skier. You could - I suspect - purchase it for the average snowHeads bar bills for one or two bashes.
4) The situation in inbounds North American skiing is perhaps a bit different - because of what might be considered off-piste terrain in Europe being in a patrolled and avi-controlled environment. But if I am doing something in a likely area - I am still going to wear the gear. My choice though.
5) This whole thread is a bit weird in that we are taking seriously David's opinions when he previously advocated - with no evidence at all to support him, the use of a ball of red cord as an effective avalanche safety method for skiers - and has also previously said that he never carried a shovel... ever...
Skiing has moved on a bit. I think in a few years time we will be discussing the morality of going off-piste without ABS.
Also training in avoidance and recognition is surely still undervalued.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 5-03-08 15:13; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
As you are a low-count poster, I will assume that was asked in innocence, and not as a troll. I will also assume you are not a sock puppet
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It was definitely an innocent question and I have no idea what you meant with your sock puppet comment 
Fair enough point about me asking a question without searching for an answer first. But I think my off piste comment stands in the face of this debate (despite the fact that it has been discussed before). My point being, that some people think that they don't need to carry the equipment because they don't think they are venturing into a "real" off piste area. Which is rubbish.
Anyway, enough from me, I'll go back to lurking and google "troll and sock puppet"...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother, yeah, I wonder about the ABS thing. Awkward for a Brit skier with the differing approach by airlines from IATA guidelines - and probable security hassle. And taking the 'avoidance is best line - I sincerely hope never to be in an avalanche, and try to behave accordingly. So I think the risk too low to justify the cost, particularly for the low number of weeks I ski per year. And being a knackered old ***, I am loathe to carry extra weight. Debatable, I know. Can it be hired at resort?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stoatsbrother, quite a lot there. The central issue is what we (the knowledgeable ones) say to people wanting to dip their tips into powder for the first time. You make a couple of central points:
| Quote: |
| I think, to put it mildly, it is impolite not to carry the gear. |
I don't think the SCGB guidance is based on manners (it's not expressed that way) but totally respect your personal motivation to wish to rescue others as necessary. I'm arguing that manna, rather than manners, is a realistic consideration. On that note you say:
| Quote: |
| The expense is not huge for a committed and active skier. You could - I suspect - purchase it for the average snowHeads bar bills for one or two bashes. |
We are not necessarily giving this advice to a committed and active off-piste skier. It's advice for off-piste novices, who may or may not take to it.
Relating the cost to the expense of binge-drinking is highly ironic. For all I know, a keen off-piste novice might be a teetotaller ... alternatively, a hangover could slightly impair one's avalanche awareness!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Snowmonkey, I had to look them up yesterday because I kept seeing the terms and didn't have a clue what they meant!
If SCGB put on its site something suggesting that carrying the trinity was optional, could it have liability issues? Being an organisation whose comments may be considered to have weight (SCGB bashers, leave me alone - if it weren't considered to have weight, The Times probably wouldn't have asked for its comments), doesn't it have a responsibility to take a more dogmatic line?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, thanks for the info. I can assure everyone I am real, and not deliberately provoking conflict…..at least not yet 
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I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned the 'knowing how to use them' part of this arguement. One of the dangers of carrying this equipment, particularly for someone new to off-piste skiing is the thought that, 'I'm OK now, I've got all the avalanche protection gear', when in actual fact it's a much use as a chocolate fireguard if your mate is buried and you don't know how to conduct a search. Do the SCGB reps check this, or do they just give out the kit? If I was a rep I would want to make very sure that at least a couple of the people I was skiing with knew how to use the kit properly just in case I got into trouble.
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Yesterday set off loose slab slide and wish i had followed my own rules (more than 4" put on tranceiver) but no transceiver, when I started skiing that day we had 8" of fresh. Us diff than Europe I was in bounds but on dbl blk steeps needless to say after catching the fracture line out of the corner of my eye I headed into a group of trees and let the slide go by. Should off-piste skiers get the kit well transceiver still quicker and cheaper than a funeral. I also bought both our transceivers on sale to help out the pocket book, basiclly 505 of normal costs.
I do have to mention though I often just grab the skins and go do some quick slack country skiing, but I know when things are stable and when they're not in my little world. Been skiing the same area for 9 seasons.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| vetski wrote: |
| If SCGB put on its site something suggesting that carrying the trinity was optional, could it have liability issues? Being an organisation whose comments may be considered to have weight (SCGB bashers, leave me alone - if it weren't considered to have weight, The Times probably wouldn't have asked for its comments), doesn't it have a responsibility to take a more dogmatic line? |
Interesting point, but if that dogma is called for then I repeat the question ... is it mandatory to carry shovel and probe when off-piste skiing with a SCGB rep, but not on an SCGB off-piste holiday?
The reps seem to have gone silent in the past couple of hours!
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BGA, it varies - most do not, but will show if asked, sometimes they may suggest a practice. Of course, anyone in a party who is buried cannot do much more than wait to be rescued (apart form pee) - but the beeper will still aid their rescue. I like the idea of areas with buried beeps for folk to practice that are now available in some resorts. I confess I don't practice much. Memo to self: practice with a buddy at the MSB.
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FAQ
