 Poster: A snowHead
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snowball, it is definitely not for the delicately nurtured.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowball, Me2. I take the point that the local hospital might not have been able to deal with - even so it is appalling that there was no helicopter on standby for racing of this standard.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I doubt that a helicopter would have made a difference. They'd have pulled it straight and back slabbed it either on the hill or at the bottom of the mountain. Definitive treatment of the fracture would have been unlikely to make much difference, it is likely that the soft tissue damage was done at the time of the accident from looking at the video.
My heart goes out to this chap and his family. If they've had to do a late amputation, it's likely that he's quite poorly. Let's hope he pulls through and lives to tell the tale.
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so very sad. I wonder if they managed to save the knee.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| geri wrote: |
I'm wondering if he developed Compartment Syndrome
http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40001914/
This happened to a friends daughter following a skiing accident in Courchevel & she lost her lower leg as a result  |
Almost certainly.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
What a horrendous fall, demonstrating yet again how backward is the science in setting ski binding release values at racing speeds. His leg should have been protected. At recreational speeds, skiers' legs are so effectively protected from fracture but at racing speeds one wonders if there are recognised scientific release values ... or is it mainly guesswork?
Hopefully his boot and binding can be married up so that some testing and evaluation can take place. No racer should experience that horror. |
Hi D. , there is science to release settings on bindings, we both know that. The questions are :
-was the science applied ?
-were all the factors taken into account weighed at the same importance?
of course the factors we do know is the racers weight en height, the type of ski used, the race conditions and the kind of performance required.
however how does the speed come into the equation??
I don't think you can simulate at the top of a mountain all the factors and the use a laptop to set the bindings. Racing bindings least resistance setting would equate the setting for a 150 kg (300 pds) recreational skier...
Looking a this horrifying video I can say this the other ski was hit by the gate and released correctly, however I think Mathias was knocked out by hitting the gate and he fell forward, when his ski touch the ground the first time it was in perfect sliding position but the fact that Mathias body was not reacting when his foot hit the ground his body slumps forward and probablu causes the leg to break.
This also explains why his body can make 2 twists around the facture before the muscle tissues resist hard enough for the foot to bring the ski into a position where the binding release can work my estimate form seeing the terrible footage that the facture occurs within 30 m of the gate , look at the 3r cross line after the gate...
Every time I look it's like I actually feel the pain going through my body.
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derekski, welcome to snowHeads.
I couldn't say exactly what the ski/leg was doing. As I watched it, the first twist was enough to make me turn away from the television in horror .
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snowball,
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I don't think I'll watch the video
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...wish I hadn't...what a truly appalling accident. I do so hope he survives.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| vivski wrote: |
It was a horrible crash - ... Seems terrible that no medical helicopter was available and that he was not immediately taken to a hospital that could deal with his injuries - I really hope for his sake that this incompetence doesn't lead to the loss of his leg ..
I think that really attention should be focused on the delay in appropriate treatment after the crash had happened. And most respect to all of these guys and girls who do literally risk life and limb every time they go out to race on the speed courses
all the best to Matthias and his family. |
It was horrible indeed. I too wrote a message in his guestbook for a speedy recovery.
I find it difficult to look at it over and over again, but these incidents are for all of us in ski racing learning moments and you got to look, slow it down see it frame by frame and learn the lessons whatever your function on the slope is, and so that you can teach your racers.
The FIS regulations foresee appropriate medical support measures. A helicopter is (to my knowledge) not mandatory.
This is an exceptional case both in the way it occurred and in the type of injury that were incurred.
I understand the Austrian team managers, but this exceeded far beyond the foreseable impact of an accident occurring on a downhill race, let alone during a Super-G race.
I know it doesn't bring back his leg, this was a case of a fatal combination of circumstances that exceeds any of the organisers. I know how bad all these people must currently feel being each part of that fatal combination of circumstances.
Forget the blaming and the fingerpointing - let's analyse and learn
and for "Lanzi", get well, recover get on your feet again, get through that revalidation - fight, soldier! - get on those ski's and come back to the slopes, you merit that, and even after losing your leg below the knee, if you want it : you will ski again!
that is my wish for Lanzi
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| derekski wrote: |
| Forget the blaming and the fingerpointing - let's analyse and learn |
Good post. And let's hope that they do.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| geri wrote: |
| I'm wondering if he developed Compartment Syndrome ( |
I read through the document. This is highly possible seeing that CS devellops in 15% of open fractures like this one
However I think that seeing how the foot twisted after the initial fracture the bone structures would have made severe cuts in the soft tissue causing most blood vessels and nerve tissue to be severely damaged.
I also think the doctors would have taken this into account as part of their overall therapeutic involvement.
My estimate is that too much dammage was done to the soft tissue, however there is one more factorthat compromises the recovery of the foot that is the racing boot.
Most racers buy their boots smaller then they should and close their bucles only seconds before they start. this gives them increased control but also force the blood out of the foot. After the underleg was broken and the bones damaged the tissue some blood that had collected just above the boot would have squeezed inside the fracture wound. The lack of blood in the foot creates conditions for early necrosis inside the partly severed limb.
I'm not sure at what point in time they removed the boot but I stronly suspect that it will have been at the first hospital.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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derekski, Welcome to Snowheads  , and thanks for your thoughtful and informed contribution.
We all share your thoughts about "Lanzi"
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| derekski wrote: |
| Forget the blaming and the fingerpointing - let's analyse and learn |
Matthias has lost his lower leg and nothing will bring it back. A lot of questions have been raised about the safety setup, not just the helicopter but the hospital communication etc (e.g. why wasn't he flown direct to Oslo in the first place?)
A legal investigation will be started today. There have been 30 accidents so far this season, if an investigation results in improved safety to reduce accidents and/or provide better medical support after an accident then it's worth it in my book.
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You know it makes sense.
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| DB wrote: |
| Matthias has lost his lower leg and nothing will bring it back. |
That's a good point. It's not an umbrella.
| DB wrote: |
| There have been 30 accidents so far this season, if an investigation results in improved safety to reduce accidents and/or provide better medical support after an accident then it's worth it in my book. |
The crux of the matter, in my view, is the ski binding. I want to know why a mechanical component which was largely perfected for preventing leg fractures for recreational skiers - over 30 years ago - didn't function properly?
One gets the impression that ski waxing for World Cup skiers operates at a much more sophisticated level than ski binding adjustment. It seems that racers and their technicians just crank up the DIN settings with blind faith.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Awful news, but I won't be watching the video either, not when I'm off out skiing in 10 mins. The injury to the Arsenal player was bad enough to watch.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have to admit to being somewhat surprised about the lack of a rescue helicopter, I've only ever seen the Wengen races but there you typically have a rescue helicopter parked at the top and bottom of the course, perhaps however this is because of the lack of proximity to a nearby A&E dept.
None the less a dreadful accident and I feel terrible that he's lost his leg, I just hope he makes a good recovery now.
As for the ski binding not releasing well they don't always if the shock does not hit the ski from the correct angle it won't release
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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According to Dr.Hölzenbein, the Austrian doctor who flew out from Salzburg to help with treating Lanzinger, there was probably not much chance of saving the leg. Every one of the arteries in his lower calf was cut through. In an operation lasting several hours he attempted to get the circulation restored but it didn't work very well, and when some circulation was restored the body started being poisoned by the influx of poisonous substances ( I guess that means from clogged blood in the arteries ). Parts of the bone were missing, so that according to Hölzenbein it is questionable whether the leg could have been saved even if they had got him to hospital in Oslo sooner.
Meanwhile lawyers acting on behalf of the family have taken the amputated leg into custody. I guess we have not heard the last of this!
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| Steilhang wrote: |
Meanwhile lawyers acting on behalf of the family have taken the amputated leg into custody. I guess we have not heard the last of this! |
No, I doubt if we have! Where is this leg prison?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The question isnt really about if the helicoptor would have changed the result here but WHY was there not one there? I mean seriously all the Austrian resorts have a helicoptor rescue available within 30min. Just look at the Scott Mc Carthney crash The helicoptor was there as soon as it was needed.
I feel so sorry for him and his family he will spend along time wondering what if? I think this will change future races will all have a medical chopper there
Hopefully he will have a speedy recovery both mentally and physically my thoughts and prayers are with him and his family
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| Meanwhile lawyers acting on behalf of the family have taken the amputated leg into custody. |
That's right, blame the leg.
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From the link Steilhang posted - it's good to see Telekom Austria have offered Matthias Lanzinger a job.
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Skiing is life in Austria this he will be well looked after 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I echo all the sentiments wishing Matthias well also the questions about the emergency cover and the choices made regarding treatment.
Is there a standard form "rule book" which lays down minimum regulations as to medical/ emergency facilities for World Cup (and similar) events?
What input or responsibility do individual teams' medical staff and /or managers have for inspecting and 'signing off' on such arrangements locally for each event?
Does the central body which runs World Cup events have any duty to satisfy itself that on an event to event basis adquate care has been taken over health and saftey?
I don't know the relevancy ( in the jurisdiction ) of whether the delay or the bindings caused or materially contributed to the outcome but questions are being raised and it will be interesting to watch this matter. At the very least some good may come out of this in the form of lessons learned and acted on.
Whether or not compensation is being sought or will be paid on whatever grounds I sincerely hope that Matthias wants for nothing for his rehabilitaion.
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I'm sure one of the programmes this w/e, with coverage of the downhill, interviewed the Medical staff and they said that a helicopter would be available if required. Think it was on C4?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It was the head doctor on ski sunday found it a bit strange after what happened wonder if they should have had a helicopter?
Olpanije: You can be garunteed there will be a new updated rule book after this weekend if one does not already exsist
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm with you snowball. Based on everyone's reaction on this thread, I think I'll give the vid a miss!!
As was mentioned above about another amputee, I guess he will recover well (hopefully) but who can assess the mental scars?
Also spare a thought for the guys/gals that are first on the scene and have to deal with it.
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The race was at a recognized ski resort.
If I was picking somewhere to go for a holiday then knowing that a helicopter wouldn't be available for serious injuries would be a pretty good reason to go elsewhere.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Tim Sawyer wrote: |
| Based on everyone's reaction on this thread, I think I'll give the vid a miss!!( |
You're right to do so. I watched it live and last night I had nightmares about it. I am so upset for him.
I'm going skiing on Saturday and I really need to get over this.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| robin scott wrote: |
Hey guys need your support im currently trying to set up a new site for snowboarding ...
thanks for your support
robin |
Robin, do you have one leg (the subject of this thread) ... in which case all support to you.
If not, you've placed that posting a bit unwisely, but welcome to snowLegs!
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Poster: A snowHead
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robin scott, hello and welcome to snowheads. I appreciate your enthuiasm to tell people about your webcam chatroom.
Im not sure its in the right place though, this is a tragic thread about a ski racer having to have his leg amputated.
You probably want to post that in Snow Reports or The Piste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I'm going skiing on Saturday and I really need to get over this.
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Assuming you aren't planning on bombing down a sheet of ice with your DIN settings wound up to 104, I imagine you will be fine.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| I imagine you will be fine. |
I expect I will be.
I expect Lanzinger thought he would be too  .
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've removed Robin's post for blatant and insensititive spamming.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
The crux of the matter, in my view, is the ski binding. I want to know why a mechanical component which was largely perfected for preventing leg fractures for recreational skiers - over 30 years ago - didn't function properly?
One gets the impression that ski waxing for World Cup skiers operates at a much more sophisticated level than ski binding adjustment. It seems that racers and their technicians just crank up the DIN settings with blind faith. |
Read a few comments posted after various news articles (in German). Not sure how true this is but a few people said that ......
........ the forces on the skis during a world cup race are enormous and much higher than a recreational skier although there isn't a corresponding strength increase in resistance to breakage from the leg's bone and muscle structure. Settting the binding too low also presents large risks (e.g. losing a ski at 60 mph in a GS curve) after hitting a rut.
A high binding setting appears to be a professional risk that is accepted. As far as I can see legal action against Fischer would be akin to a formula 1 driver trying to sue a tyre manufacturer (who is also their sponser) after a crash caused by a tyre blow out. Competition equipment doesn't normally come with a guaranteed safety rating/mechanism.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| DB wrote: |
A high binding setting appears to be a professional risk that is accepted. As far as I can see legal action against Fischer would be akin to a formula 1 driver trying to sue a tyre manufacturer (who is also their sponser) after a crash caused by a tyre blow out. Competition equipment doesn't normally come with a guaranteed safety rating/mechanism. |
that's certainly how I would see it - I would imagine that the binding will have been examined to ensure there were no major faults etc, and I am sure they are regularly checked anyway. Obviously this was a horrific accident and it is a tragedy that Lanzinger has lost his leg, but accidents happen and as you say, these are professional sports people who are fully aware of how high risk this sport is - as the commentators like to remind us these guys are going way above the motorway speed limit for this country - with basically no protection (to the extent that the frame of a car is protection).
I hope that once everything has settled down attention will be focused on wishing Lanzi a good recovery, both physically and mentally, with not too much of a witch-hunt to find someone to blame, regardless of whether anyone is to blame or not. If obvious faults are found with the binding or if it is thought that the medical facilities in place were not sufficient then obviously these things should be rectified for the safety of all concerned, but also bear in mind that sadly freak accidents do happen, it may be that the bindings have no fault and were set as the racer wanted and usually used but that the way the fall happened they did not release. As DB also points out DINs set too low could also be a disaster.
also a little perspective folks - us mere mortals go at nowhere near these speeds (hopefully  ) and our DINs aren't even in the same ballpark so don't let it put you off your skiing!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ordhan wrote: |
| The question isnt really about if the helicoptor would have changed the result here but WHY was there not one there? I mean seriously all the Austrian resorts have a helicoptor rescue available within 30min. Just look at the Scott Mc Carthney crash The helicoptor was there as soon as it was needed. |
You should not compare the austrian situation with any other. The Austrian WC slopes are located in the far end of valleys, and the nearest town is often 45 min drive away. Even for relatively small accidents they need Heli assistance. Anyway like the Germans they prefer to use rescue helicopters. The French and Italians hardly ever have Heli-support.
I still think that the availibility of a chopper is totally irrelevant. The nearest hospital could not provide the help required they referred the patient to OSLO, that should be an indication of the medical severity.
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Poor guy. 
I won't watch the video, I'm not good with bodies doing stuff they're not supposed to. What an awful awful thing to happen. I just hope he can recover from this, both physically and mentally.
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FAQ
