 Poster: A snowHead
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I depart for the three valleys in a few weeks time with a group of 10 people.... we have just received notification that due to the weak pound against the euro, we each need to pay an extra £32!
Not a huge amount, but not good news, especially when we are all scrabbling around trying to find the pennies for lift passes, equipment hire and lessons!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Were you told about the fact you may have to pay more?
When we accept bookings now we give the price in Euros and explain that when the final amount is due the GBP amount will be finalised.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ye we got collared for that in Switzerland.
Extra 90 Swiss francs per person, 9 of us.
The chalet/hotel was run by Brits as well 
Would still go back though, nice place, and well friendly hosts
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My arguement would be that if the pound was stronger would they be giving you a refund?
Surely it is swings and roundabouts with the exchange rates.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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magic_hat, having organized a group trip recently that got well and truly hit by the exchange rate fluctuation, that seems cheap top me. Certainly not 'screwed over'.
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| Quote: |
When we accept bookings now we give the price in Euros
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This seems the fairest way of equalising swings and roundabouts. I wish it were more widespread for holidays. Many UK ex-pats still seem to set prices in £s which may occasionally benefit them but often I suspect is to their disadvantage, as this year
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Martin Nicholas, I agree. Fortunately for my group, £ and € costs were dealt with separately as much as possible. The original budget prepared in October, showing forecast costs all in £ went out the window, though.
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Seems like a rip off to me. Surely a large company that is exposed to exchange rate risks could hedge against that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The moral of the story? Ski in Colorado 
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The weakening of the pound to such a degree as this season may not be unprecidented but it's pretty unusual.
The prices of Winter holidays obviously need to be set by the end of Summer and, since September, the £ has lost 10% of it's value against the Euro and CHF.
All tour operators build in a small margin for currency fluctuation but only about 2-3% generally. Bigger operators may pay for their resources ahead of the season or they buy options on the money markets to hedge against such movements.
In January, I found myself in the position of having to ask people coming to the Mid Season Bash to pay extra.
Fortunately we were still far enough ahead of time that I could give people the option to pull out instead but nevertheless, I felt very awkward about it. I really had no option though, as the shift against the Swiss Franc had been so huge that I would have actually had to subsidise people on the trip.
I'd quite like to do everything for the bashes in Euros to avoid this sort of thing but I've not yet found a suitable bank account.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 15-02-08 12:34; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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magic_hat, I wish we were able to charge a currency surcharge but as a small operator we've just got to absorb it and this season it really hurts so if the exchange rates move in our favour then I'm happy to take the benfit. I'm pretty sure there'll be widespread increases in holiday costs in throughout Europe next season.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Fri 15-02-08 14:54; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Kramer, we disagree... if they use currency surcharges as a one-way bet in their favour that's sharp practice
david@traxvax operates ethically - The TO and the customer should be exposed to both sides or neither.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| magic_hat wrote: |
I depart for the three valleys in a few weeks time with a group of 10 people.... we have just received notification that due to the weak pound against the euro, we each need to pay an extra £32!
Not a huge amount, but not good news, especially when we are all scrabbling around trying to find the pennies for lift passes, equipment hire and lessons! |
If it is less than 30 days until you travel, they cannot legally impose any surcharge now.
Nor can they legally impose any surcharge due to exchange rate fluctuation unless they would also give a discount ffor a change in the other direction.
Nor if the amount of the increase is less than 2% (so in your case, they cannot charge an extra £32 unless your package price is less than £640).
The rules are in The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992
| Quote: |
Price revision
11.—(1) Any term in a contract to the effect that the prices laid down in the contract may be revised shall be void and of no effect unless the contract provides for the possibility of upward or downward revision and satisfies the conditions laid down in paragraph (2) below.
(2) The conditions mentioned in paragraph (1) are that—
(a) the contract states precisely how the revised price is to be calculated;
(b) the contract provides that price revisions are to be made solely to allow for variations in:—
(i) transportation costs, including the cost of fuel,
(ii) dues, taxes or fees chargeable for services such as landing taxes or embarkation or disembarkation fees at ports and airports, or
(iii) the exchange rates applied to the particular package; and
(3) Notwithstanding any terms of a contract,
(i) no price increase may be made in a specified period which may not be less than 30 days before the departure date stipulated; and
(ii) as against an individual consumer liable under the contract, no price increase may be made in respect of variations which would produce an increase of less than 2%, or such greater percentage as the contract may specify, ("non-eligible variations") and that the non-eligible variations shall be left out of account in the calculation. |
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| red 27 wrote: |
Kramer, we disagree... if they use currency surcharges as a one-way bet in their favour that's sharp practice
david@traxvax operates ethically - The TO and the customer should be exposed to both sides or neither. |
The exposure of the TO is far greater than that of the customer though. The TO faces going bust, something that is unlikely to happen to an individual customer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have set my accommoation prices in euros, and get paid in euros via Paypal or bank transfer, regardless of the nationality of the visitor. It has protected my income from fluctuations, but I agree it will have made it more expensive for my British guests admin, have you tried Britline for an account? They are an English-speaking telephone/online branch of Credit Agricole, and you don't need a French address to open the account. www.britline.com
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Kramer, The point that you don't seem to have grasped is that I agree it's perfectly OK for a TO to protect themselves from undue exposure by passing on currency costs - as long as they also pass on any currency savings. This way there's no chance of them going bust - but no profiteering either.
See post from alex_heney, above... looks like it's covered by a higher power than ethics anyway
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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alex_heney, Thanks for the link.
The terms and conditions on the website I booked on make no mention of an increase due to currency/exchange rates. A lot of other ski companies do include this in their T&Cs, but mine don't.
There is obviously no mention whatsoever of a refund had the exchange rate moved the other way, so I would imagine that if there had been a strengthening of the pound, there is no way in hell i'd have been sent a £300 refund, this makes it rather a one-way street.
I understand that companies will be taking a hit on this, but our holiday was paid in full last December - at the price they quoted me. With no mention of potential increases due to currency fluctuations or exchange rate changes, it seems a bit of a cheek to send me a bill for £259!
Thing is, they have you over a barrel. Yes you can get into an argument over the terms and conditions on their website, but they'll just ensure that it drags on long enough to threaten your trip - knowing full well that you'll have to pay up if you want your tickets to be posted out.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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magic_hat, give them a bell and ask to be pointed to the relevent clause in the T's&C's
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magic_hat, if you feel that aggrieved, you could try paying up with a letter stating that payment is without prejudice to any claim you may take against them - and then seek recovery through the small claims court. That said I don't know what your chances are, since it seems to me that the TO is behaving reasonably. Perhaps one of the sH legal beagles would care to comment?
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red 27, agreed that would be nice. Perhaps it's worth keeping note of who asks us for a surcharge, and then when currency moves the other way asking them for the difference?
Another issue is at what point it is reasonable for a company to try and protect its marging? When it faces a shortfall that may make it go bust, or merely when it may lead to a significant reduction in profits?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| red 27, Another issue is at what point it is reasonable for a company to try and protect its marging? When it faces a shortfall that may make it go bust, or merely when it may lead to a significant reduction in profits? |
I seem to recall that some companies will absorb a 10% fluctuation before they impose charges. I guess it's a lot easier for the big boys as they've got the cashflow to insure against anything to major - that's presuming they choose not to pass it on to the customer.
Currency fluctations of course have an impact in all international businesses. A major UK listed mining company recently posted net GBP profits down 2% despite the gross figure being +20% as most of their revenue is in USD - ouch as the sums involved are 100's of millions of $'s
I bet the TO's wish we were in the €...
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| magic_hat wrote: |
I understand that companies will be taking a hit on this, but our holiday was paid in full last December - at the price they quoted me. With no mention of potential increases due to currency fluctuations or exchange rate changes, it seems a bit of a cheek to send me a bill for £259!
Thing is, they have you over a barrel. Yes you can get into an argument over the terms and conditions on their website, but they'll just ensure that it drags on long enough to threaten your trip - knowing full well that you'll have to pay up if you want your tickets to be posted out. |
First you point out that they have no legal basis to impopse a surcharge.
If they insist, and refuse to send the tickets without you paying, then you threaten to sue them for non-performance of contract.
If they still insist, then if you want the trip, you probably don't have much choice up front, but pay but with a letter stating that you are doing so under protest, and will be claiming that money back. And even get started on the process of claiming it back before you leave, using moneyclaimonline https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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alex_heney, Cheers for all the help... I'm guessing you've done all this stuff before! I've sent them an email, will chase it with a phonecall if no response and set the ball in motion!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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admin, Cater Allen (which is part of the Santander group who own Abbey) do bank accounts in other currencies including the Euro.
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If the UK was part of the EMS and we used the Euro too, this would be a non-issue.
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You know it makes sense.
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I do feel that there is a bit of a one way street on this sometimes. For our apartment, we deal only in Euros so people pay the real value for the property relevant to the local market. I understand that it's a bit different for TOs who deal in masses and masses of bookings in different countries and properties, but really, if they take your money in December, and hang onto it for two months, then find it is no longer enough to pay the overseas supplier, I don't see why it should be the customer's fault.
Maybe I'm being a bit simplistic and I realise that this is in some way governed by law, but they are massive businesses with forecasters etc. in house who should be able to make allowances for this kind of thing. Certainly if it is not mentioned in the Ts & Cs that this may happen, then I don't think they have covered themselves for this.
A bit different with smaller TOs with less room for movement I guess, but it could still be predicted to some extent - the current/recent fluctuations weren't completely surprising.
D
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Deliaskis, TOs could predict and take account of currency fluctations. Trouble is, if they predict a drop in the £, they have to up their £ prices comapred to using the current rate. They would then look uncompetitive with other TOs who convert at a more favourable rate and rely on surcharges, so it's inevitable that they'll prefer to use the best rate they can justify and then shove on a surcharge once they have your booking.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Noone can predict the markets.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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magic_hat, I'm a bit confused - was the price quoted to you originally in Euros and then converted into pounds at the time that you paid? I also wasn't sure - did you pay if full in December 07 or December 06. If it was December 07 surely things have not changed that much in the last few weeks (don't monitor these things that closely myself although probably should....) and if you paid in full in December 06 then wouldn't the interest made on your payment over the course of a year have negated the need for any surcharge? If there is no mention of it at all in their terms and conditions then I would be very loathed to pay any extra myself. Just as a guide line I have copied an pasted in an extract from our terms and conditions which do seem to exonerate you. I have to say I think it would need to be a very extreme currency fluctuation before we would inforce the surcharge ourselves even if we are feeling the pinch. Is it a large or a small TO that you have booked with?
| Quote: |
Once a price is confirmed, we will only alter the price in the following circumstances: a surcharge or refund ( as applicable) will be payable if extra transportation costs, such as fuel surcharges ,extra aircraft insurance and security costs are incurred, or taxes or fees payable for services such as landing or embarkation or disembarkation fees at ports or airports increase or decrease, or there are fluctuations in currency exchange rates we have used to price your holiday. We will not however increase the price in respect of such circumstances which would produce an increase of two (2) per cent or less or increase the price within the period of 30 days prior to your departure.
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Hope that helps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Kramer, I know nobody can predict the markets, but you don't have to be an economist to have realised in summer/autumn 2007 that the £ was going to be hit. This is the nature of their business, their bread and butter so to speak, and I think it's shoddy to take money from a customer in December, then two months later (and 3 weeks before the holiday) ask for more because they chose not to pay the supplier at the time or at least convert the money when it was received (no doubt because they thought they could earn more interest off it in the UK).
richmond, I do understand your point, and I guess it takes the whole market to shift rather than the odd one or two, but I think it's sometimes dealt with in an underhand way. But you state they need to use the best rate they can justify - were they being realistic in whether the original rate was justified? I don't know the answer, but I do think that companies should hold a certain level of responsibility for the promises they make and the rates they charge.
In lots of other lines of business (including mine, which involves dealing across multiple currencies), you would have absolutely no chance of going back to the customer months after the order and just weeks before delivery, asking for more money. We're expected to do business responsibly and I don't see why the travel sector is any different.
Ach well... I guess that's what the regs mentioned above are there for.
D
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Deliaskis, I agree entirely. I'm sure that TOs do all they can to reduce the 'headline' cost, regardless of whether this is likely to give an inaccurate idea odf the final cost.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| katski wrote: |
Just as a guide line I have copied an pasted in an extract from our terms and conditions which do seem to exonerate you. I have to say I think it would need to be a very extreme currency fluctuation before we would inforce the surcharge ourselves even if we are feeling the pinch. Is it a large or a small TO that you have booked with?
| Quote: |
Once a price is confirmed, we will only alter the price in the following circumstances: a surcharge or refund ( as applicable) will be payable if extra transportation costs, such as fuel surcharges ,extra aircraft insurance and security costs are incurred, or taxes or fees payable for services such as landing or embarkation or disembarkation fees at ports or airports increase or decrease, or there are fluctuations in currency exchange rates we have used to price your holiday. We will not however increase the price in respect of such circumstances which would produce an increase of two (2) per cent or less or increase the price within the period of 30 days prior to your departure.
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Hope that helps. |
Those T&C match pretty well exactly what the law requires for them to be enforceable.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
Nor if the amount of the increase is less than 2% (so in your case, they cannot charge an extra £32 unless your package price is less than £640).
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Um, is your maths correct?
£32 is 2% of £1600.
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magic_hat, any news?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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katski, The price was in £s and i paid the last instalment in December 2007. That was us all paid up... or so i thought....
red 27, Sort of yes. After trying every method conceivable of contacting the company concerned (phonecalls, emails to every address i could find etc), I contacted ABTA. I started to try and explain my point about the T&Cs and he stopped me and said "before we get into the wording of T&Cs, let me check something with out legal team".
Basically it appears that if a company wants to charge a surcharge to its customers, it has to get permission to do so from Abta. This involves serving a notice of intent to surcharge or something. Only once this has been approved can the surcharge be invoiced to customers. My company has not requested this permission and has not served its notice of intent to charge.
I've had to forward all my details to ABTA and they are looking into it for me.
alex_heney, The T&Cs for my holiday are:
Once the price of your chosen holiday has been confirmed, then, subject to the correction of omissions or errors, we will only increase the price in the following circumstances: changes in our costs resulting from transportation costs e.g. fuel, scheduled airfares and any other airline surcharges which are part of the contract between airlines (and their agents) and the tour operator, and government (including foreign) action such as increases in VAT or any other governement imposed increases. This increase will cover any changes in our costs in excess of those taken into account in the aviation insurance/security supplement charged at the time of booking.
Mine differ from katski's in that there is no mention of refunds as well as surcharges and no mention at all of currency fluctuation as a possible reason for a surcharge.
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| Deliaskis wrote: |
if they take your money in December, and hang onto it for two months, then find it is no longer enough to pay the overseas supplier, I don't see why it should be the customer's fault.
D |
Exactly
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FAQ
(and I bet not one person pulled out ).
