 Poster: A snowHead
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There have been a few threads about property prices over the last few week.s I just read this article in the local paper about Haute Savoie / Savoie ski property prices which have increased 20-25% over the last year.
http://www.ledauphine.com/economie-l-immobilier-flambe-en-montagne-les-prix-de-vente-atteignent-des-records-et-continuent-de-grimper-@/index.jspz?article=10430
Here are the top resorts:
Flaine/Les Carroz +23%
La Clusaz +22 %
Haute-Maurienne +21 %
Évasion Mont-Blanc +22 %
Tarentaise +15 %
The picture is mixed elsewhere in the Savoie The Haute Savoie has bigger properties and more chalets which have done better than apartments. The resorts are also more attractive, according to the article.
This should be compared to a generally stagnant or falling market in the Rhone Alpes.
The paper edition says the boom is driven by British investors.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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... who should be politely advised to invest their money elsewhere. The soulless speculation culture in the Alps is doing the environment and ecology of the mountains no good whatsoever.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, part of me says you can't buck the market. Part of me wholeheartedly agrees with you.
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Excellent!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A friend who works in a Chamonix estate agent told me that, the top and bottom of the market are holding up but that in the middle there is a Mexican stand off with no one buying
and no one selling and that English buyers were thin on the ground .
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whilst a Euro costs 77p I can see the market collapsing fairly soon 
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ... who should be politely advised to invest their money elsewhere. The soulless speculation culture in the Alps is doing the environment and ecology of the mountains no good whatsoever. |
For every buyer there's a seller. Of course, you know what's best for them and for the world in general. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| Courchevel 1850 is leading, even at the national level, with the € 14963 sq.m. apartments |
Makes 9k/m in Les Arcs sound cheap 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Habieres seems to be the Old Kent Road of the ski property monopoly board - which is odd as Geneva is commutable and it about 3x that per m2.
One reason that some ski properties have increased per m2, according to an expert, is that areas with "restricted headroom" can no longer be counted as habitable space. So for example in Avoriaz many 30sq.m appts are now 25sq.m appts but have not dropped in price. It doesn't seem as if this survey takes that into account (it is effectively the equivalant of the land registry prices, I don't know if they do any weighting as they do with UK indices to take into account of property bands, seasonal trends etc).
I think further devaluations in the £ will bring some UK investors back down to earth.
> A friend told me that, the top and bottom of the market are holding up but that in the middle there is a Mexican stand off with no one buying
Interesting. I've just been reading a report on how to survive the forthcoming recession. They say either position yourself in the luxury or cheap as chips end of the market. It is things like 3 and 4* hotels and shops like Monsoon that suffer in a downturn not Primark or the Savoy. The middle class become the new chavs while the rich are pretty much insulated.
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You know it makes sense.
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Interesting article. Thanks davidof.
I suspect the average prices hide quite a large range per sq m.
For example, Morzine is down as around 4k per sq m, but if you look locally you'd be hard pressed to find a good 35 sq m for less than 190k-230k, whereas a 100 sq m chalet will cost proportionately less at around 400k-500k.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OK its ugly but arcs 2000 = 2405/M2!!, if that is true this has to be the best place to buy if you want your very own crash pad. I'm out in a few weeks and will be checking the agents windows, doesn't sound right to me !!!.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The paper gives these as the % of Brits in each resort buying in 2007
Saint-Jean-d'Aulps 68% 
64% Morzine
45% les Gets
44% Flaine
42% Chamonix Mont-Blanc
Arc 2000 is cheap, cheaper than buying in the valley. No idea why but sometimes the local community forces property owners to renovate their properties (currently happening at Chamrousse) which can be quite expensive and is reflected in the purchase price. I can see having Arc 2000 next to Arc 1950 wouldn't please Intrawest customers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It must be said, davidof, that it that happened in this country then the front page of The Sun would be covered in nothing but outrage.
thefatcontroller - that's dearer than our (very nice) flat in London.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, yes, I saw an apartment the other day that had an entire bedroom which was not included in the "superficie" but was certainly reflected in the price, which was ridiculously high (according to no less an authority than the nice lady from the immobiliere...). It did have limited headroom, but it had a window, and two sets of double bunks, and would have appealed enormously to children. Has that rule about what can be counted only just come into effect?
Some of those percentages of British buyers are truly scary. Much higher than the percentages which saw Free Wales chaps burning down cottages in the late 'sixties.
Round our way the new MGM apartments (co-prop classique) seem to be selling for rather less, per sq m, than four year old ones on re-sale. Is that common in the French market?
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Mine has nearly tripled in price since we bought it off-plan in December 2001, if recent sales in our block are to be believed. Notional increase in value, of course, as we have no plans to sell for the foreseeable future. Reading between the lines of recent presentations from MGM and Intrawest to our co-prop AGM they believe there will be some retrenchment for a couple of years at least, although not sure if that means actual falling prices or just a slow down in the slightly ridiculous property inflation that we've seen for the last three or four years in my little bit of the Tarentaise.
David Goldsmith, perhaps it would be best for you to offer your advice to the locals who enable this development to take place. It takes two to tango (although only one to stand on a soapbox and lecture at people who aren't interested in listening  )
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That's unusually rude and personal of you, Robert. Behave yourself.
No, the rape of the Alps should come to an end.
It's nothing that 'locals' will control, because (more than likely) their local political representatives will be in the pockets of the people who finance these projects. We know that bribery creeps into the UK planning system.
What's needed is international law to protect the Alps. Over-development and pollution were recognised as serious problems over 20 years ago. They are far more serious threats now.
With the snow-line rising and the demand for wintersports continuing apace it is not surprising that high-altitude property is gaining value at 20% per annum, and this fuels the spec building. Only international planning controls and laws can control this menace.
Over-fishing? At least we're trying to control that.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| That's unusually rude and personal of you, Robert. Behave yourself. |
your ongoing carping about people who buy holiday homes in that part of the world is unusual (few other people do it); personal (it is a direct criticism of several snowHeads who have made the same choice as me); and the frequency with which you make the same point I consider to be rude. But live and let live, eh?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Miaow!
I suppose so, but I find this 'where can we make the most dosh?' stuff pretty nauseating.
davidof's data is quite interesting. 'An Englishman's second home is his castle of cash', I guess. Quite a few people could use first homes right now!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My decision to buy a place in the Tarentaise had precisely nothing to do with 'where can I make the most dosh'. It was an investment in 'quality of life' which as you no longer ski you might have difficulty in understanding the contribution a home away from home in the Alps makes to this.
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rob@rar, Me to. My decision to look to buy was based upon a desire later in life to spend more time in the snow. I am 99.99% certain I will go to my death bed still owning the place and my kids shall inherit. Whether I make money on it is actually the least relevant factor for buying.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ... you no longer ski ... |
Crap. I slid, I slide, I shall be sliding.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ... you no longer ski ... |
Crap. I slid, I slide, I shall be sliding. |
Prove it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, agree with you whole heartedly on your sentiment that the 'where can I make the most dosh' statement is tosh. Generalised tosh. We didn't buy in the Alps to make a fast buck. We bought there because we love the area and would like to spend more time there and, fingers crossed, be able to move there at some point in the future. Maybe many do just buy for the investment and that's their call. Does my head in when a lot of people always assume it is just because of money, money, money...
davidof, very interesting article 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob
I've been sliding since 1959, and will be sliding in 2029 (with a bit of luck).
What on earth does this have to do with understanding your point? This thread is about escalating property values in high mountains, and it's perfectly legitimate for people to comment on the pros and cons of those trends (which I'm trying to emphasise have serious environmental consequences) whether they ski in the mountains or don't even go to the mountains. The future of the Alps is in the balance, and a holistic approach needs to be taken.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
rob
I've been sliding since 1959, and will be sliding in 2029 (with a bit of luck).
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That's an assertion, not proof.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, Aren't the capital gains laws/tax in France for overseas buyers quite horrendous making the quick buck very difficult?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| rob@rar, Aren't the capital gains laws/tax in France for overseas buyers quite horrendous making the quick buck very difficult? |
I think so, although not sure if that's only for overseas buyers or all property owners. But as we've never had any plans to 'make a quick buck' I didn't pay much attention to that side of things
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rob@rar, Me neither but I think I read it is 40% of any gain?. The solicitor was mentioning it for legal purposes.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
That's an assertion, not proof. |
You are demanding that I prove that I've gone skiing? What is this - the Savoie Inquisition?
Rob, a discussion on escalating property prices in the Alps is something most anybody might want to participate in. It's not exclusive territory for 'frequent skiers' - perhaps there are those outside this little bubble who might take a view. Escalating property values in the UK have consequences for those who don't necessarily own property.
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David Goldsmith, everyone except you and megamum is willing to say where and when they go skiing. And megamum has announced her intention of going to the EoSB. When you are so unfriendly about sharing your experiences, you cannot blame others for suspecting you do not ski. All you have to do is say where you have been skiing/plan to ski this year and we will believe you.
Whilst I understand your concern about the Alps, using the word "rape" is offensive hyperbole. There are - I believe - sometimes temporary restrictions on foreigners buying property in some Swiss Cantons. If the French agreed with you they could do the same.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoatsbrother, There's a difference between suspecting I don't ski (perfectly valid to hold any suspicion) and saying "you no longer ski" (which was rob's misrepresentation)
I took him up on it because he has a habit off making blanket criticisms of journalism for factual inaccuracy. Much journalism is highly accurate and produced by brave individuals at considerable personal risk or exposure who believe in advancing public knowledge.
The use of the word "rape" isn't inappropriate to the exploitation of Alpine terrain by some speculators, in my view. It may offend the occasional shy and sensitive property developer but the meaning of the word is "the spoiling or destruction of a place".
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