For a 2nd week skiier at least - all I remember doing is holding poles as balance exercises, and using when too lazy to bend down, or as a fishing rod to catch other pole from where I dropped it higher up when falling over.
Am I likely to be starting using pole plants, I could more or less do parallel turns by the end of my week of summer skiing, so presumably will continue to work on them. Got my ESF "Premier Ski" as I was a wuss all week - less wussiness (and less boot agony) and I would have got the 1er Degre according to my instructor. From the look of the ESF syllabus also will be looking at skating steps - used them getting to lifts, step turns (no idea what these are) and sideslips (tried - need improvement).
Anyway upshot is, am I crazy to be planning to go skiing with a dodgy wrist? No idea what's wrong with it, apart from the fact that it hurts and there's nothing visible on an MRI (no breaks or obvious soft tissue damage) - it's getting scoped later in March. Wrist copes OK with horse riding and driving, but doesn't like typing, holding plates and writing very much. Even when at it's sorest, I still could (and did) use it to catch glasses or whatever if knocked off a table...
Obviously the insurance co's are going to exclude it, but other than that, any issues?
Thanks
R
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I've always been fairly sceptical of poles. I think I abandoned them a couple of days into my second week-long skiing holiday, and by the third time I had stopped using them pretty much completely...and by the fourth time I was on blades.
I was out in Canada for three weeks over New Year, doing my CSIA level one, so I had little choice but to get used to being back on skis and back with poles. I'm still not their greatest fan but I do see some potential benefits. I could quite happily go out all day long and lark around without poles, as could many skiers really, but if you want to advance your skiing and develop a 'correct' technique then you should stick with your poles. I don't think I'll go on too much about how to use them properly though, because to be quite honest I do still struggle with them. I'm not confident enough in the advice I would give!
As a second week skier, it's important you don't get weighed down with all the aspects of technique and equipment, but I don't really think you want to become too accustomed to skiing without poles as this will not help you further along the line. All the best skiers use poles, and if you ever catch a ski instructor without them then they're probably doing a specific training exercise - much like what you seem to have done with balance etc. I would say they are important for you!! I wish I hadn't abandoned them so soon after being introduced to the sport.
In response to your other question though, I wouldn't say you're crazy...but seriously I'd go easy on the pole plants. My wrists became sore because of all the pole planting (this was a source of many innuendos...) whilst I was in Canada, and I felt less able to even try and further my pole-planting abilities than I would have been with better wrists. If you're only there for fun, do what you get the most fun out of - and this might not be pole-planting! I would recommend skiing with them but not using them unless you can do it without much pain. It's just not worth the risk of injury really, there will hopefully be other times when you can ski without a painful wrist, and then you can get down to some serious pole-planting action
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Poles are a big boost to timing and edge-changing in bumps, and they help a lot with rhythm and balance in off-piste skiing.
If poles weren't valuable to balance and turn initiation generally they would be left behind by racers, because they create air drag.
But that's not to say that a great deal of piste skiing can't be happily done without poles. When it gets steep, deep or bumpy, poles are a must.
I don't think I've ever had a days skiing when I didn't need poles for poling! Even if you can skate, you'll still go better with poles, where it's flat. They are also useful to block people trying to push past in lift queues!
As for skiing. You do not need to plant the pole for a skidded turn. As some sources will tell you, you can just flick them. You don't really need even to do that, it's just a signal you send yourself to initiate the turn. When you're carving, you don't plant them though you might flick them as you go from edge to edge. But, even if you're not planting the poles, having them helps you balance. Racers use poles though they're not planting them.
Racers use poles though they're not planting them.
They certainly are, to gain maximum boost from the start hut. A downhiller will be light on any pole plant, but gain a lot of balance. A slalomer will certainly plant a pole to start every turn.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ull wrote:
IRacers use poles though they're not planting them.
They do in GS and slalom, and as a recovery move in DH if things get out of shape in a technical section.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Professionnals, in any sport, do not tend to hinder themselves with useless equipment..So it does tell something about poles that they are still being used by professional skiers... Sure you can ski without them (and it's good skill to have) but if they are not being used then it tells me that the skier's technique is not very good..
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I went from blades to 150s without poles. I came from snowboarding and do more or less the same unweighting to initiate a skidding turn. Since I could do that on a board I don't have a problem on skis either. In a carving poles play even less of a role.
I got some poles as a present so now I carry them anyway and that is no great hardship really. One place where they are really worth it is getting back up after a powder fall. If I am out with my youngest I will leave them in the car just to make t-bars a bit easier.
I guess personally I don't see any great fundamental difference between a snowboard turn and a ski turn so if boarders don't need them....
Additionally without poles I used my gloves with wristguards built in. Presumably sking without poles would incur the same risk of a wrist injury as boarding.
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David Goldsmith is, of course, right about racers using the poles out of the start hut but I was talking about turns. David and rob@rar must have been watching different races to me. I've not seen any racer on TV or the kids having race training in Italy do a conventional pole plant. Sure the poles are waving about as aids to balance but not planted. Race speeds, apart maybe slalom, would make a conventional pole plant snatch your arm back and do your balance no good at all.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Ull,
I think David and rob@rar did make very good point about GS and slalom race, as well as DH.
Maybe racers do a "conventional" pole plant but it's only because it's all high speed and slightly more adapted to each discipline that you do not see as a "conventional" one...
No doubt you can ski very well/have fun without poles, but if you really want to have accurate technique and progress in terms of peformance and terrain I'm afraid this means you'll have to use poles..
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Do you need them for everyday on piste skiing........no.
Do they improve your general technique (on or off piste)..........if used properly yes
Do you need them to ski steeps and bumps effectively.........definitely.
So it depends on what you want out of your skiing and what you are skiing.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Ull wrote:
David and rob@rar must have been watching different races to me. I've not seen any racer on TV or the kids having race training in Italy do a conventional pole plant.
I suppose it depends on your definition of a pole plant. If the tip of the pole is made to contact the snow and is used to aid timing or affect the body in some way I call that a pole plant, although others might call it something like a pole kiss or whatever. But the use of the pole is an integral part of many turns in GS and most turns in slalom racing. To say that it is not used in racing is incorrect. Just watch some races this weekend, in slo-mo if necessary.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
malcolm1 wrote:
Do you need them for everyday on piste skiing........no.
I suppose it depends on your definition of everyday piste skiing. If I'm doing short radius urns on piste (pretty much an everyday kind of activity) virtually every turn uses a good pole plant, and without poles that kind of turn becomes much more difficult. If I'm doing long radius turns I will use the pole plant much less often although I still need them for balance and might well use a pole plant (even a double pole plant) to help keep my upper body in order.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Randomsabreur,
Poles? You will definately need them. Remember it's not just poling that will be difficult. What about carrying your skis, poma's Tbar and chair lifts all require some use of your hands.
Strap it, and some strong painkillers from the docs and do what you can. Good luck!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
This is like the third thread about poles I've read in the last two days, so I figure saying that if you don't think your poles are doing anything, you'd benefit massively from a lesson to show you what they should be doing - it'll improve your stance and balance hugely, which in turn will benefit your overall skiing hugely.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
DaveC, I agree with you - I've had a couple of lessons where proper pole use was a focus, and it was a revelation - before, I thought they were primarily for braking when I felt I was going too fast, but now I can get up a lovely rhythm with their help which I can't without them. Being able to ski without them is useful, though (e.g. sister throws toys out of pram and refuses to ski one more turn, leaving me to carry her skis on my shoulder...)!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
"Just watch some races this weekend, in slo-mo if necessary."
OK ro@bar, I've rewatched part of Channel 4's coverage of the GS from Adelboden, including Didier Cuche's run. Poles are pointed backwards for the vast majority of the time. True, they often drag on the surface but that's not a pole plant. When used to aid balance, they may come forward, especially if the inside arm has trailed and is thrown forwards as the outside arm of the next turn. Even here, the tip of the pole seldom came up to level with the skiers body and was not planted.
Poles aid balance in general and pole plants are massively useful when skiing steep bumps. Good pole planting is basically a sign of good technique. Ever seen a mogul skier NOT using aggressive pole plants? Me neither.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I was taught without poles so it has taken a while to get used to them. An extra benefit for me is that I've never got rid of my nervousness of people skiing down behind me, I know the onus is on them to avoid me but I still don't like it. I use a light pole plant as an indication that I'm in the process of/about to turn &, although I know it may only be psychological, I've found that has reduced the need for me to keep stopping at the side of the piste when there's heavy traffic about. As others say, it also helps to keep the rhythm of my turns
Maybe we do have a different definition. Try this video of Joel Chenal skiing GS at Kranska Gora. It's a short clip in slo-mo and to my eyes he is using his poles all the time, including pole plants (to my definition at least). Also see this video of Sonja Nef skiing slalom at Maribor. Or you could look at Benni Raich, also in Kranska Gora. Virtually every turn involves a pole plant, and just for good measure he throws in a double plant to regain balance when he needs to.
I accept that these are not the same pole plants that you would see when someone is doing jump turns on very steep terrain. They are just a quick flick of the wrist and a gentle prod at the snow, but they serve the purpose of a pole plant which in in this context is an aid to timing, a trigger point for the next turn and a means of regaining/maintaing balance. Other than a difference in power a pole plant is a pole plant, surely?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ull, this might be of interest The Pole Plant in Modern Technique. Or this article from Ron LeMaster; look at frames 3 and 6 & 7. If Rocca is not planting his pole in those images I'm not sure what else he could be doing. Here's another one of Nicole Hosp very clearly planting her pole (look at the images in box C).
After all it is free
After all it is free
Anyone going to try answering the original Q ?
Random - you'll be fine with the actual skiing. Just explain to your instructor you've hurt your wrist and at your current lesson level I doubt it will make any difference to what you are taught. However flats without poles are a pain, and you may also land on your wrist in a fall - things to bear in mind when making the final decision.
IMO, not crazy, just take it easy, horse riding yould give a greater risk I think (I also do both) and you seem to have been managing that fine.
aj xx
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a.j. wrote:
Anyone going to try answering the original Q ?
Oops, that seems to have bene over-looked.
Here's a good answer:
Quote:
Random - you'll be fine with the actual skiing. Just explain to your instructor you've hurt your wrist and at your current lesson level I doubt it will make any difference to what you are taught. However flats without poles are a pain, and you may also land on your wrist in a fall - things to bear in mind when making the final decision.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
They're essential for towing tired children along the flat bits
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
veeeight, Thanks.
My belief is that we need all various flavours of "pole planting" in good skiing, from the plant to stabilise the upper body, the oblique plant to use the torque generated, to the pole touch, for timing and rythm, and also as a tactic to re-stack, or re-centre all the joints.
However, the caveat among many instructors is, that whilst learning to ski, you should concentrate on the feet and skis first, before introducing this concept, as learning pole planting can often mean a backward step in the progress. Thus the feet/skis movements should be well ingrained before introducing the pole plant.
Two most common problems skiers have with their poles is that they plant them too late, and too straight. Skiers who lack an effective pole plant often compensate with some form of rotation, or stem.
And when you're in the steeps and/or moguls, oh boy, you'd better have good solid pole plants!
What a great summary. There are many ways - and reasons - to skin a cat, obviously.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
malcolm1 wrote:
Quote:
Do you need them for everyday on piste skiing........no.
Do they improve your general technique (on or off piste)..........if used properly yes
Do you need them to ski steeps and bumps effectively.........definitely.
I would add a fourth question:
Can poles be a positive hindrance to beginners who clutch them tightly to their bodies all the time like a safety blanket... yes!
Any early skier who reckons that their poles are necessary for "balance" or "timing" on slow skidded or carving turns on piste ought to get rid of them for a while, and maybe (heresy?) try half a day on blades. Good pole technique is undoubtedly a key skill for more advanced skiers, and something to work on. Poor use of poles, especially by nervous beginners, holds them back and contributes to their inability to use a more relaxed and "bipedal" style.
Thanks, forgotten about that useful thread. Glad I didn't contradict any of it!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Good topic. Had a lesson with easiski and found that one of my issues was that i was trying to plant a pole on each turn which meant that my shoulders swung round towards the hill. Skiing was so much easier when I stopped trying to plant the pole and just concentrate on my position.
ESF's fault...all I remember from my lessons was 'pzlant ze pol, pzlant ze pol'
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
On a historical note , the early pioneers of alpine skiing like Mathias Zdarsky used a single long wooden pole:
Occasionaly, telemarkers still ski with one for a bit of retro fun!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
David Goldsmith, watching the ladies' slalom now, and none of the racers are planting them, just dragging them.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
KateF wrote:
Good topic. Had a lesson with easiski and found that one of my issues was that i was trying to plant a pole on each turn which meant that my shoulders swung round towards the hill. Skiing was so much easier when I stopped trying to plant the pole and just concentrate on my position.
ESF's fault...all I remember from my lessons was 'pzlant ze pol, pzlant ze pol'
That's because like me you learned to ski on straight skis and you had to learn how to parallel turn. The introduction of shaped carvers which really do make everyone look better than they are comparatively, means that the pole planting is no longer as important apart from on the steeps and moguls.
As for me I cannot ski without poles in my hands, it just does not feel right.
David Goldsmith, watching the ladies' slalom now, and none of the racers are planting them, just dragging them.
I switched on the box when you'd posted that, to have a look but none of the channels on mine had any skiing.
If anyone can point to some video on the net of 2008 women's slalom we could maybe discuss the state of the art. I'm fascinated to know how female racers would initiate a new turn fast enough without a rapid pole plant.
Of course, the design and gradient of a course will determine the degree of turning and maybe the degree of pole-planting - i.e. the alignment of the gates.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
David Goldsmith wrote:
If anyone can point to some video on the net of 2008 women's slalom we could maybe discuss the state of the art. I'm fascinated to know how female racers would initiate a new turn fast enough without a rapid pole plant.
i was trying to plant a pole on each turn which meant that my shoulders swung round towards the hill.
Your shoulders didn't swing round to the hill because you were trying to plant a pole on each turn but because you were doing something in the pole plant to create the problem. At a guess, you were keeping the pole in the snow for too long so that it pulled your hand and hence your shoulder back as you passed it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The pole plant should be quite brief - usually involving mostly a movement of the wrist and certainly not a swinging round of the shoulders. It becomes most important (as others have said) on steeper slopes.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Not very important for me on my snowblades!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
hyweljenkins wrote:
David Goldsmith, watching the ladies' slalom now, and none of the racers are planting them, just dragging them.
Most of them Were planting the poles - very lightly- on quite a few turns.
One or two weren't and the Channel 4 commentator even commented on the fact with the 17 year old Slovnian, saying she was "very modern style - very few pole plants".
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For what it is worth, I saw a boarder with poles on Friday. Can't explain it. He was using them to get along a flat bit.
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