'Skating' movement on the flat

A snowHead

When moving along on the flat I have to use the poles (well they're cheaper - before anyone else gets it in NehNeh

) to push myself along. Its knackering.

I see lots of people doing the 'skate' movement and it looks much more efficient. I've never skated and I've tried this technique but simply can't get it.

Is it possible to describe how it's done or give me some tips?

A snowHead

I can't ice skate to save my life (always end up on my backside, or worse), but I can skate on skis without too much hassle. You simply push off from one leg, at a slight angle to the line you are travelling in, then push off the other leg at the same slight angle but in the opposite direction. It's like doing long diagonal strides forward, but with skis on. You have to transfer your weight fully from one leg to another, and make sure you edge your ski a bit otherwise it will slide on the snow as you push off it. Raise you inside leg slightly so the tails of your skis don't get tangled.

Having re-read that, the written description sounds much more complicated than the reality - it's pretty straightforward, just needs a bit of practice to get the timing right.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Can you climb uphill using an open 'V' (herringbone)?

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comprex, haven't tried that, still side step if necessary Embarassed

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Jeraff, there is no substantial difference between the herringbone and the basic skate, it's just a duckwalk with your weight in front of your heels.

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Jeraff, Are you only using your arms to drive the ski poles into the snow? To pole more easily you need to bend forward at the waist and drive the poles into the snow at roughly the same time. The weight of your upper body bending forward will provide the majority of the driving force, so saving your arms. The motion is roughly bend-drive the ski poles-straighten up then repeat. If you have back problems this might not be advisable so state instead.

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Jeraff, for the full EuroSkater-stylee effect hands should be clasped behind the back with poles facing upward as one effortlessly glides along.

Which resorts offer good Skating Practice I wonder... I seem to recall Saas-Fee having some excellent long flat bits on which to practice the technique, Val D'isere also has some great skating runs - they mark them green as I recall - there's a particularly satisfying one back to resort offering a mile or so of gradient free piste on where progress can happily be made without the unwanted assistance of Gravity.

Can fellow snowHead

's suggest other good resorts to enjoy this under-rated Alpine discipline?

After all it is free

I can do it on ice-skates, but with skis my feet are just too bloomin long and the tails seem magnetically attracted to each other!

Yeah, would definitely say herringboning up is the best start, it will teach you where the back tips of your skis are and how to place it in front of the other ski (without clashing the back of the other, if that makes sense). You will also feel the weight transfer rob@rar is taking about.

Take this to the flat (sorry for the Warren Smith phrase!) and you need to be fairly dynamic and lead forward.

The next stage is to try and master what I have seen so many instructors doing with such grace. That is skating, but transferring weight onto each outside edge. Ie. left ski flat, right ski on edge and ~45deg to left ski, if looking down from above. Push on the right ski on its inside edge. Then as you move forward (on the left) you roll your weight and balance onto the outside edge of the left ski (right ski lifted in the air, you will be slightly carving out left). Then roll onto the left skis inside edge, push & land the right ski flat, roll this ski onto the outside edge while lifting the left.

It uses the carve of the ski to make a very graceful and effortless skate, the key to it is timing and balance.

All that probably doesnt make a jot of sense !!! sorry Shocked

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It's important to make as much use of each "push" as possible by prolonging the "glide" phase. Many folk trying to learn skating rush things so much that they simply "step" from one ski onto the other with no "advantage" from the glide. Also, the angle subtended by the skis needs to be a lot greater than you think - i.e feet will be maybe 35 deg or so (at a guess) to your direction of "forward" motion, which enables you to get a really useful "push" from the edged ski.

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Thanks everyone. Perhaps I'm over thinking about it but I'm even struggling with the theory.

Some questions that may be daft:

In moving forward, are you actually zig-zagging or does knee bend keep your centre movement straight?

Is the ski that is 'gliding', flat or on edge (if edge, inside or outside)?

After the 'push', that ski has to get forward to get ready for glide - does it leave the ground or slide (if slide, flat or edge)?

Your weight goes on the back ski to push and then transfers to gliding ski?

Does the angle of each ski change between 'push' and then 'glide' with regards to the forward direction line?

You know it makes sense.

BTW does anyone find big twin tips annoying while skating. When I hired some Guns in 188 I kept clashing tails while skating - not that big a deal but given I dont go backwards much might be enough for me to look for a ski without twin tips...

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

taemo, skating onto the "outside" edge? You sure? Only if you want to go round in circles... wink

I think the instructors in question are just playing around, I don't think this is an efficient way to skate!

A snowHead

To my shame and embarassment I have to admit that I am rubbish at skating Embarassed

I keep trying, but have wound up in a tangle on a number of occasions. This is never funny coz you are trying to skate where you can't ski and therefore then have a slow and knackering walk to catch up with your group who are all laughing!

A snowHead

I can skate no problem at all, thanks to my 152cm Miss Demeanor pixie skis. Very Happy

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jedster, part of that is from the forward mounting position.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

David Murdoch, efficient? No. It is, however, far more effective and far more powerful at full speed than inside edge push and glide.

And, to prove it, here is Chad Hedrick doing it to win a race, I guesstimate about 28-33mph:

http://youtube.com/v/b3gF1qWq6nI&NR

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comprex, those are funny looking skis? And to be serious, I don't think even my SLs are short enough to accomplish those crossovers...

After all it is free

David Murdoch, same move, and, yes they are. I was doing it on a pair of 162cm Edelwisers last week. Watch for it in any skiercross with flat sections and the winner will use the no-lift version of it. The trick is that the new weight bearing leg has to be much, much shorter than the old stance leg.

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Jeraff, you're probably overthinking it a bit.

The way I was taught:

- push one ski off to the side (NOT to the rear)
- step onto the other ski, WITH ALL YOUR WEIGHT,
- let it GLIDE...
- now that your entire weight in on the 2nd ski, just push "it" sideways and step onto the other ski
- repeat.

For the skating to work worth the trouble, you need to commit all your weight to the glide ski for as long as you can. It took me a while to realize my "skating" wasn't any faster than poling along because I wasn't gliding long enough.

Once you entire weight is on the gliding ski, it's much easier to push off of it when the glide slow down.

For pratice, go to the bottom of the learning slope and skate DOWN the gental slope.

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rob@rar, extremely well so long as the hip and CoM can travel far enough along the arc.

In fact, that is what ILE -is-, with the added constraint of a bit of vector maths:

one moves the pelvis and CoM into the current turn, but not uphill.

You know it makes sense.

comprex, you'd have to move the hip a long way (unnecessarily so?) to get into a rhythm when skating. I can see it's the same as ILE, or any committed turn when you make a strong transition, but it seems like hard work for an already tedious activity.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

[quote="comprex"]

A snowHead

rob@rar, as I said before, it is powerful but not efficient; the reason it is powerful overall is that power is applied close to 100% of the time instead of just during a kick phase with the rest coasting. This means that it can add power and speed when the kick and glide would be just too slow, or the inside edge of the kick phase simply doesn't get enough traction (say, unsharp edges, or inside edge boot-out).

The distance the hip is required to move is governed by how short one makes the set-down leg, so cadence and skier overall speed are factors. It may be that those 90mm AMEs require 8-12mph forward speed before the technique is feasible by mortals of normal core strength...<shrug> I was just practicing it on quad skates the other day, which are to race skates like Icelantics to DM's Dobies.

Unnecessarily? Certainly for low speeds (under 8mph, say) I would agree. I pick the 8mph speed because it seems a common running speed and reflects on the runners' gait cadence and stride length. It is, however, my preferred method for powering any skating at a pace faster than I would run.

A snowHead

abc, not so hasty! </Fangorn> Not work for nothing, but rather work including an additional step (assuring the student can balance on one ski), the need for which (or not, depends on the student) can be visually confirmed in seconds by an instructor, but which must not be left out of Internet advice.

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comprex, go on, video please. I can't wait to try this at the weekend. Woohoo nearly Friday!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Jeraff, Alternatively, if you use Telemark gear you can just do a classic Langlauf stride! Toofy Grin

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Then when you have mastered the feet part, the fun starts introducing a good push with the poles as well, just like cross country Smile

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Skating is easiest to learn on Skates!

Seriously, roller-blading is great for fitness, leg-strength, balance, core stability and edge sensitivity. There is a direct cross-over of skills and techniques, such as A-Frame Turn => Snow Plow; Parallel Turn => Parallel/Carved Turn; Lunge Turn => Hockey Stop. And most particularly, of course, Skating => Skating!

Skaters identify 3 distinct 'strides', plus 1 variant. These are:

Stride 1:
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The 'duck walk' / herringbone beginner stride, where each push is off the 'back' foot at an angle away to the side. Good for getting started, and for tackling up-hill sections.

Stride 2:
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A few Stride 1 strides to get started, then roll forward on (say) Left foot while pushing directly to the side with Right foot. Note the Right skate points almost perfectly forward during this push, not out to the side as in Stride 1, and that the left leg will need to bend as the right pushes out (to keep the Right skate on the ground!). When the Right leg is extended as far as is comfortable, recover it to the centre; stand up and roll forward on the Right skate while pushing out to the Left in the same way. Repeat.

Stride 2 is mostly an intermediate / learning step between Stride 1 and Stride 3. It has one important benefit, however, which is that there is always 1 skate running straight, directly beneath the body. This makes it a very safe stride, and the most suitable for skating on wet/slippy surfaces.

Stride 3:
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This is a development of Stride 2, and comes about by removing the supporting leg. Get up a little speed then on, say, the Left stride, transfer all weight to the Left skate and allow it to to drift out to the left on inside edge. As with Stride 2, the skate points almost straight forward, and the accelleration comes as the resultant of the forces between the skate and the ground, and gravity pulling your body downwards. Essentially, you are in a controlled fall.

Now, before you actually fall, place the Right skate under your body on centre edge and stand up, replacing the potential energy (height) consumed in the last stride. Transfer all weight onto the Right skate and allow it to drift out to the right on inside edge, while AT THE SAME TIME lifting the Left skate off the ground and bringing it back towards the centre ready to repeat the movement.

This stride needs a lot more control and balance, because you are almost all the time on only 1 skate, which is constantly adjusting edge and position. On something as short as a rollerblade, there is also much more chance to get tripped without the support of the 'centre' skate that is a feature of Stride 2. It is MUCH faster, however, and also very efficient once you are good at it. I think the efficiency is because you don't fight the outward drift of the skate; you are essentially linking a series of 'falls' (much the way I ski!!), and the major muscular movement is simply standing up again each time you place the new skate at the centre line.

The Double Push:
--------------------
This is a variant on Stride 3, and is pretty hard to do. You mostly see it done by speed skaters on 5-wheel skates. It is also very close to what taemo was describing.

Basically, the Double Push has two 'falls' per stride, instead of 1. After placing the skate on the centre line, you don't let it drift out on inside edge; you let it drift in - under your body - on outside edge (the first 'fall'), and then steer/drive it back to the centre and out on inside edge as normal (the second 'fall'). With two power strokes per stride, top speed skaters can get a speed advantage, and be back in time to watch the rest of us wrenching our hips and falling on our faces as we try to copy them.

So - what's the cross-over to skiing. My take-outs from rollerblading would be:

Stride 1 (the duck step / herringbone) is ugly and hard work. While it is the only way to get up a steepish hill (other than sidestepping, of course), it is not a good stride for skating skis. The aggressive way the feet are pointed out make it almost inevitable the tails of the skis will get tangled, or the fronts will catch an edge.

Stride 2 translates pretty well, but note that a skate on tarmac has a little more lateral resistance than a ski flat on snow, so the centre ski needs a little inside edge to avoid being pushed off line.

Stride 3 is what we want. In my experience (helped by many years' rollerblading perhaps), it is easy and relatively effortless to maintain. The trick is to let the skis do the work, linking up that series of falling motions, and simpy standing up as each new ski is placed in the centre line. Other tips are to remember you really don't have to point the skis aggressively out to the side - it should feel like they are drifting out while almost straight - and it is easier at a reasonable speed, so start skating before you slow down too much on the flats.

I've not tried them, but this may be a skill that is helped by a couple of hours on snowblades before attempting on full skis, just to get past the whole tripping-over-your-own-skis stage.

After all it is free

Very difficult to glide on one foot on snowblades, very easy on skis. QED

rob@rar, David Murdoch, when we had some starting practice on a Snoworks course, I was pretty rubbish and ugly in the skate out of the gate. It was only right at the end of the session that it became apparent that oneof the (many) things I was doing wrong was pushing off onto the inside edge of the glide ski - whereas Phil hadn't thought it necessary to explain as it was so self-evident that you should be pushing off onto the outside (little-toe) edge Embarassed

, then roll onto the inside/(big-toe) edge during the glide. Once I managed to get a bit of practice at this it all worked a lot better - just don't overcook it (particularly with "fatties"), and you do need a reasonable amount of speed for it to feel comfortable. I also thought it very interesting that one of the others there, who had Nordic as her 2nd discipline, was also rubbish at this downhill skating - and made the point that uphill and downhill skating are completely different techniques. If skating uphill I guess you have to be really strong to keep doing that uphill, so then I revert to the inside-edge "herringbone" style. So pretty much what the genuine skaters/rollerbladers here have been saying.

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'Skating' movement on the flat

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