“Anyone venturing off piste should be carrying a transceiver, a shovel and a probe"

A snowHead

“Anyone venturing off piste should be carrying a transceiver, a shovel and a probe"

Not my words, but those of my club, the Ski Club of Great Britain, quoted by The Times in an article yesterday called Ski deaths prompt safety calls

I know that my club means well in issuing advice like this but I fundamentally disagree with the advice. To be doubly sure that the Club is officially saying this I turned to the safety section of the SCGB website:
'Living the Dream: Getting Kitted Out'

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

David Goldsmith, I agree with what you're saying, but also I can see where the ski club is coming from on this. By making it a blanket rule it helps impress upon inexperienced skiers the dangers of going off piste.

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David Goldsmith, Tricky area, there are many times when I ski off piste without kit, and I am quite cautious, I feel competent to make the call.
But the answer to the question should I carry kit, must always be yes, the questioner would not ask the question if they were aware of the circumstances where it was not vital. A responsible organisation must always err on the side of caution, so the advice is sound.

In short, if you have to ask, the answer is yes.

PS I am just off to Grands Montets and will be kitted out.

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After all it is free

I think it's very different to the helmet issue because it's several times more expensive and implies a rescue duty to others, which may be creditable but is not necessarily applicable (in my view)

Sweeping generalisations are always wrong Wink

It's a good suggestion, but should not be a blanket rule, in my opinion. It requires "off piste" to be defined.
If you are not on a prepared piste, are you "off piste"?
If you cut across from one run to another for 10 metres, are you "off piste"?
If you are skiing in an area which is patrolled, has been declared safe and open and is within the ski area boundary, but you are not skiing on a marked run, are you off-piste?

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The unfortunate fact is that avalanches are essentially not predictable, so I always carry all the kit, and have recently added an ABS rucksack as well. The best example I know of avvies not being predictable is that of an entire pisted and controlled slope avalanching when the risk level was at 1/5 ( yes that's ONE Shocked

). Happened up on the Zugspitzplatt on a piste that had only that year been added to the area. The chairlift feeding that piste has never been opened again Shocked

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Every guide that I've ever been with, in every conditions of avalanche risk has insisted on everyone in the group having a transceiver at all times, and there being a suitable number of kitted out back packs amongst the group.

If someone is in the position of being a group 'leader', then it is up to them to stipulate the rules. If you don't like it, then don't go with the group.

Transcievers are a significant single investment, however compared to the overall cost of skiing, I'm surprised that more people don't have them.

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If you ski off piste at all you are likely to ski sometimes when the avalanche level is not low, so you need the kit. The kit is not just for your benefit but for the benefit of those who you might save. The fact you are skiing (probably) in a safe place does not mean that others nearby are. If you were close and couldn't help because you didn't have the equipment and people died, how would you feel?

Our guide last week was telling us about watching 4 people between pistes get avalanched. They didn't seriously think they were in danger on their gentle slope even when they saw the avalanche approaching - though people on the lift above were shouting at them to move. They were pointing at it coming from the steeper slope above and standing still when they could have just skied onto the piste a few yards away and escaped it. 3 died. One was peeing behind a rock and was not found till the next day: dead, squatting with her pants down. One person was pulled out just in time though he had gone blue with lack of air - our guide didn't know if he had any long term damage. None had transcievers so the 3 dead people were only found after rescue services arrived - which was too late. However I have heard of other cases where those avalanched had transcievers but the people nearby didn't.

The time I was in an avalanche the avalanche danger level was low with old compacted snow and the guide was convinced it was safe where we were, which was on relatively gentle slopes. The last person of the group set it off onto the rest of us - so if someone has just skied the slope it doesn't mean it is safe.

In my experience all guides now require everyone to wear transcievers and many require shovel and probe. In my experience all are pleased if you already have them but some accept only a few of the group carrying them if the exposure won't be serious (though the latter was some years ago and may be out of date).

For several years now the ski club has required transciever, shovel and probe on all off piste holidays.

Interesting thread. I had my first real off-piste experience this year, late Jan-early Feb in La Grave and I did have a read of the SCGB advice before I went. I only had a shovel of my own and a very small backpack, so I hired the whole kit in resort, 4 days for €50 - I think I'd have felt uncomfortable without it. Av risk was low at 2, but I'd rather have the equipment and not need it than need it and not have it. Our guide also carried everything, and on our only powder day (av risk 3) had a backpack with a gas-powered balloon in it (do you know what I mean?). He also gave us all harnesses, and tested our transceivers every morning.

David Goldsmith, I am quite surprised - in an interested, not negative, way - to hear your view, because I thought that experienced skiers, of which you are clearly one, would always have all the kit, and that it was novice off pisters who would take off without it and get themselves into trouble. Completely with you on the avoidance as far as is possible concept!

You know it makes sense.

My point is that most of the discussion on here is about going with guides in Europe, but not about off piste in Canada/USA - so if someone says you need full avy kit to ski 7th Heaven on Blackcomb, or Catherine's Area in Alta, I'd have to disagree with you, because if you are going to demand avy kit for there before being allowed to ski, then everyone should carry full avy kit, no matter where they are on the hill - including the nursery slopes.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

vetski, the harnesses would be because you were skiing on glaciers (and did he rope you down something?).
Yes, a good guide will test transcievers every day (mostly because people forget to turn them on).

€50 is rather steep for the hire!!!!

A snowHead

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snowball, our guide explained the harnesses...it made me rather nervous at first! I had considered av risk before hence the kit, but hadn't remembered glaciers had crevasses...roping is an exciting experience (hmm) yet to come.

I'm upset that the hire was pricey, the shop said it was normally €15 per day but that we'd got a discount because easiski had sent us! I guess I'll buy a probe to go with my shovel - but isn't it usually the case that a guide will supply transceivers? Certainly Manu in La Grave had them available if we'd had need of them.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

vetski, yes, usually guides have some transcievers to lend to people. But what if you go off piste sometimes without a guide?

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I think a guide would find himself in very serious trouble if his clients got avalanched and he hadn't made sure they had the right kit. I wonder if his public liability insurance would even cover him in these circumstances.

He could still find himself in a lot of trouble if his clients got avalanched and they did have the right kit but it would be a case of someone second-guessing his judgment of the risk which isn't quite as straightforward the yes or no answer of whether the clients had the "holy trinity"

As to my own practices, I have skied off piste without kit and I have skied off piste alone. In both circumstances I was confident of my judgement of the risk. But, as jbob says, if someone asks they probably don't know enough to judge for themselves so the answer is to always take the kit

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I'm pretty cautious and almost always take all of those things. They live in the ABS bag so that normally goes too although it's kind of overkill a lot of the time. You never know who you're going to bump into who might suggest a hike and some off-piste, and you never know if you might see a slide and be able to help.

I agree with your points, I'd take the article as good baseline advice rather than gospel.snowball, awful story Sad

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Wear the Fox Hat: Understand what you are talking about here, but in relation to N America but there are stipulations to areas in Banff and Whistler where you will not be allowed passed untill you show you have all the kit!

The simple face is accidents happen and even pissed declared safe can be dangerous. My backpack contains a first aid kit and a thermal blanet I hope never to use either of them but they are there same with the avalanche gear. Plus a shovel makes a handy sled getting down form the mooswiger in St Anton after a few Toofy Grin

Think the point is you should be over protected and prepared "Fail to prepare prepare to fail" Unfortunatley with an avalanch failure to prepare often leads to death. Seems to be avery British attitude and I would love to see the % of people killed in avalanches and where they are from Just out of intrest

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Interesting point about skiing with ski club reps. I doubt if shovel and probe are required but don't know if there is a rule about transcievers or if most have some to lend (or perhaps just in resorts known for off piste?).

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Are the SKGB reps still alowed off piste Toofy Grin

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snowball, good point well made. I imagine I will buy one when I get to the point that I might do stuff without a guide, but in my novice state I'm unlikely to go without a guide. Your story is alarming, though, as is Steilhang's.

On the subject of avalanches, I have read that if one gets caught, one should try & swim to keep oneself as close to the surface as possible (assuming all sorts of things like consciousness, unbroken limbs, nature of the av) and I have read that it's a bit of a controversial idea. But my question is, is one stroke better than another? Front crawl has more power, but breast stroke would keep pushing snow away from the face. Backstroke would keep your face up, but would that increase or reduce risk of suffocation?

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

snowball, DB, the ABS bag (I'm guessing that's the balloon) was the guide's own. I hired an Ortovox kit - transceiver, shovel, probe, all in rucksack. So what should I be paying? I'm a she, by the way. Smile

A snowHead

Like Kramer, every guide I've ever skied with has required everyone in the group to have a transceiver - and provided one free of charge if you didn't have your own. SCGB and Snoworks holidays also provide transceivers for everyone as part of the package (and I assume other organisations do the same). If you are skiing with a SCGB Rep off piste (s)he will also provide you with a transceiver free-of-charge. If David Goldsmith had ever skied with the club in recent years he would know this. So the cost implications are a complete red herring. I've skied probably in excess of 20 weeks off-piste using exactly those package facilities but have now bought my own (as I'm likely to be spending more time off-piste without a guide from here on in).

The comments about not having any need for equipment to provide companion rescue I find jaw-dropping, particularly as David Goldsmith is normally so hot on social responsibility. True, it's not "duty", as in mandatory requirement, but just responsible behaviour. IIRC, BernardC dug several people out of avalanches last year, at least one of whom would not have made it had he not been there with his kit. And once again, I'll link to the first post made bySimonN on this forum where he relates how he was unable to save a buried friend/colleague as his kit was back in his hotel room, he only intending to ski pistes that day. http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=89856&highlight=#89856 Where I was skiing last week there were several small avalanches coming down over well used tracks, and the official risk was never above 3 (was 1-2 most of the week). Avalanche predicition is far from an exact science, be a good Boy Scout and "Be Prepared".

Things have changed in 40 years. Many more people are skiing off-piste, so jsut by simple statistics there are going to be more people caught in avalanches, and more injuries. As responsible skiers we should play our part in mitigating those risks, and the unfortunate consequences of being unlucky.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

vetski, actually you get very little choice once you are in an avalanche - but certainly you need to be on your front, head down the hill (the chief danger is from being overtaken - from above- by other layers of snow if the snow you are in/on slows down). Another theory is that you should roll and because your shoulders (and pack) are broader you will roll out of it. A bit sceptical if you could really do it.
Wet snow avalanches are slower so you get more chance to ski out - but it is deadlier if you get caught. The scariest part with dry snow avalanches ( other than the mechanical battering you can often get - which kills many people -is that you tend to breath in powder. When I came to a stop my mouth and throat were blocked and I had to cough up an icy plug before I could breath at all (then I could breath just a little and had to tell myself not to panic - that the rest would melt.)
Getting a hand (or hands) in front of your mouth before you come to a stop is generally advised - but luckily I wasn't under the snow when our avalanche stopped.

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I can't ...... no .....no....... must resist .......... it pains me to say it but in my very humble opinion the wombles are onto something and Goldsmith should either go skiing again or sell his clockwork transceiver, dayglow fartbag and polo-neck jumper on ebay. Wink

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Thanks for the personal jibes and put-downs, guys (they weaken your arguments) ... can we stick to the issues?

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DB €80 0r 90 per day per person is a bit high for a guide, unless there are only 3 or 4 of you. It is more per person when booking into a group as a single because they may not get a full group, but if you make a group booking of 6, it should be more like €60 each (sometimes a bit more, often less). Most guides don't like to take more than 6, though a few regularly take 7. 6 is a good economical number and, for all but the very steepest slopes where to fall may be to die, is safe (on slopes like that some guides will only take 3 clients.).

For a group of 6 for 6 days skiing I normally expect to pay about €350 each.

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After all it is free · Last edited by After all it is free on Wed 5-03-08 13:13; edited 1 time in total

snowball, our La grave group hired an excellent guide at €50 a day each. Superb value for money. I am intrigued that DG feels he can take a relaxed view of off-piste skiing to support his argument here, yet cast doubt on the wisdom of skiing with SCGB reps off-piste elsewhere. One might almost think the only consistent thread in that was undermining the SCGB - but I know I must not accuse him of SCGB bashing wink

I would agreee with David Goldsmith, on the point that avoidance is the main part of the game and that the way forward to me seems to be more about emphasis on education rather than equipment.

I would think that most education though would include the need for equipment and importantly how to use it and how to maintain skills.

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I read a novel recently - Avalanche, by Jack Drummond. Thoroughly enjoyed it, and while I understand that the author would take literary dramatic licence, I did wonder about a few things. Here there be spoilers...

At the beginning there are 3 guys who plan to climb up a mountain and then board down the other side. It's a novel - obviously they got into trouble. None of them had transceivers. What surprised me is that when mountain rescue began looking for them, they didn't try transceiver searches - but surely in real life mountain rescue would? They couldn't have known that those guys didn't have them. Also, when searching, the rescue team's probes missed a survivor by a couple of metres. How possible is that?

Help!!

“Anyone venturing off piste should be carrying a transceiver, a shovel and a probe"

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