 Poster: A snowHead
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you simply can not slip an entire 1/4 mile long slope that's way over your head
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Rubbish. I've seen it done frquently (usually during half term week). 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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flowa,
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It is inexperienced skiers venturing onto ever more advanced slopes without the necessary skills that puts other skiers at most risk
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Whilst I absolutely agree with this, I can see nothing arrogant in abc's post, in fact I guess that abc would probably agree with this particular statement of yours too. Can't see what helmets have got to do with the price of fish, but then I find proselytisers on either side of that debate especially arrogant. Skiing with or without great skill (but not so as to endanger others) and/or a helmet is a matter of personal choice.
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Hurtle, Nail, on head. Hit 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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flowa,
May be I am belong to abc's group as the post does indicates "All one has to do is go SLOWLY".
When any skier attempting a black run for the first time he/she would be doing it slowly. As long one does not injures oneself and present no risk to others further down the slope then the statement
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| It is inexperienced skiers venturing onto ever more advanced slopes without the necessary skills that puts other skiers at most risk. |
is inappropriate.
Skiers who ski slowly and in full control should not be branded venturing into more advanced slopes without necessary skills, as the skill can only be acquired by going down the slope.
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AxsMan, Hurtle, saikee, Let me elucidate the point of "arrogance and irresponsibility". It is not not having the skill; it is not being interested in finding out about and gaining the tools in the first place.
The helmet comment refers to an earlier post of mine in this thread. I think it's on the previous page or the one before that. I was begining to think that it had slipped under the radar; it appears it had. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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flowa, yep,missed it. 
I didn't get the impression that abc 'wasn't interested' in the skill of side sliding. Just that they admitted to not having learned it, so coped with other tools.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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AxsMan, sure, NOW abc is interested but was ignorant in the begining; arguably when it was needed most!
I am not having a go at anyone who doesn't have a particular skill.
What does trouble me is the blithe way people get involved in an activity like skiing without any regard for their own and other peoples' safety. Mountains are not safe environments; weather can change in the blink of an eye. Surely it is incumbent on adults taking up the activity to ask the simple questions to find out about basic safety?
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flowa, if all you're saying is that a minimum set of skills is required to be safe on a mountain at all, I would agree with you - that would include basic things like knowing one should be properly clad. That is not, however, the same as saying:
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where's their personal interest in doing something well? Fancy taking up a sport and not striving to understand all the fundamentals?!?
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The fundamentals required to be safe on blues and greens are not all that great, and one shouldn't brand people who are happy to stay at that level as morons. If you are properly dressed, you can control your speed, you can stop, and you confine yourself to easy, groomed slopes, then you will be safe to yourself and to others. Helmets are irrelevant to that proposition (except that you won't necessarily be safe if another out-of-control skier wipes you out - which happens, fwiw, to have caused me to start wearing a helmet, and is the only reason I wear one.)
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Probably in places that the nanny state stipulates!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I wonder how many of the anti-helmet brigade let their kids ride bikes without a helmet on ??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| I wonder how many of the anti-helmet brigade let their kids ride bikes without a helmet on ?? |
What a wonderfully emotive yet irrelevant one-liner. Aside from the fact your not comparing like and like, it's generally accepted that younger (and smaller) kids esp gain a greater degree of protection and benefit from wearing a lid. Less mass = less momentum = less force.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just to add another angle on this, the most out of control skiers I saw on CairnGorm last week were ALL WEARING lids, and this was esp true for some that were straight lining the Gunbarrel in a wide angled ineffective snowplough in the "i'm a downhill racer actually i'm a silly out of control beggar" stance! They might think their safe with their lids on, but they were a danger to themselves and everyone else. I don't think the over confidence in those without the ability factor can be so easily dismissed as some claim.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As a recent convert to wearing helmets (bought mine this year) I don't think the argument that some helmet wearers ski like idiots has any bearing on the safety value of wearing one. They ski like idiots because they are idiots, not because they are wearing a helmet. Maybe some idiots ski even more idiotically with a helmet on than usual, but sadly you can't force anyone skiing, helmet wearing or otherwise to take a sanity test.
There are sadly quite a few idiots on the slopes, just as there are idiots on the roads. Wearing a helmet might just save my head from a dent when one of them collides with me. It won't make me ski like one.
BTW my (late teenage) kids don't wear helmets, and ski faster than me (and better too). I don't 'make' them wear a helmet as at 16 and above it's their call. We have suggested helmet use to them but not insisted. If they decide they would like helmets I'll happily supply them. Am I a bad parent? Or just one that recognises that they have to grow up and decide for themselves sometime?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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AxsMan,
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There are sadly quite a few idiots on the slopes, just as there are idiots on the roads. Wearing a helmet might just save my head from a dent when one of them collides with me. It won't make me ski like one.
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Same here, and I too have only just started wearing a helmet, but maybe what Winterhighland says is true of young, male, show-off, stupid, daredevil types? Perhaps that type of person really does think that wearing a helmet makes him invincible and therefore justifies taking even more risks? I doubt that too many women or older people of either sex would think like that.
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Winterhighland,
It may be emotive, but it isn't irrelevant. We protect our kids, so why not protect ourselves when on the snow. And as we know, Scottish snow has a habit of being more rocky than snowy. OK, not exactly comparing like to like, but very close - moving fast over a hard unforgiving surface and some other idiot can take you out.
I don't want a nanny state either, I'm in the same boat as Axsman - let each decide, but I can't see why you'd not wear one (if I read the complete thread, I'd probably find the reasons for not waring one) I did see a post here about insurance n all that. Rather than resorts getting sued, I wouldn't be suprised if a lid became part of policies. My Mrs is insurance and all kinds of claims are often reduced due to "contributary negligance" - leaving the car unlocked, putting arms/legs etc where they shouldn't be, i.e. It's your own daft fault.
Here's another one liner for you Winterhighland
Who picks up the long term tab if you are seriously hurt and a helmet would have prevented it ? Other than the tax payer.... and your family !
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AxsMan, my teenage kids are exactly the same. I won't force them but would prefer it if they did wear one. I still don't so can't really dictate to them. I have thought about getting one just to try and persuade them but haven't yet.
The thing that bugs me though is the way way most on this thread who do wear one expect everyone else to follow suit, why should we? We all know it's safer to wear one than not but it's our choice. It's safer to not ski but we still do. It's the UK all over nowadays where everyone is expected to follow the crowd, we're dictated to everyday by someone, how to eat, how to exercise, how to live our whole f****** lives, well b****** , I'll live mine how I want to and if I decide I don't want to wear a helmet I won't. I've no ligaments in my left shoulder, only rubber bands. If I had a fall on my next trip and snapped the rubber bands that's it, there's nothing thay can do. A lot of people probably think I'm mad to risk that more, again it's all personal choice.
Sarge, we live in a society that has a NHS we all have to pick up the bill for things we don't like, I might not want to pay for a drug addict to be treated as I feel it's their fault, a smoker who has lung cancer, a fat person who's had a heart attack, a sunbed addict who has skin cancer, a footballer with a broken leg.....the joys of human society and us all being different.
The likelihood is that a generation or two down the line helmets will be worn by everyone, until then if you want to wear one, good for you and if you don't fair enough it's your choice.
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Grimsby Ranger, great post! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Grimsby Ranger wrote: |
The thing that bugs me though is the way way most on this thread who do wear one expect everyone else to follow suit, why should we? We all know it's safer to wear one than not but it's our choice.
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I don't think either of those statements are typically true. Most people who wear helmets are not particularly bothered whether others choose to wear them or not. I for one couldn't care less what you choose to wear, although I would always recommend a helmet. I've also come across quite a few non-helmet wearers who insist that skiing with a helmet has no benefit at all, or can be actually more dangerous.
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I wonder how many of the anti-helmet brigade let their kids ride bikes without a helmet on ??
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I have been riding bikes for 35 years without a helmet. Bizarrely, I am not dead and nor have my parents been locked up. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| AxsMan wrote: |
There are sadly quite a few idiots on the slopes, just as there are idiots on the roads. Wearing a helmet might just save my head from a dent when one of them collides with me. It won't make me ski like one.
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Much earlier in this thread, someone was arguing (using some statistics from a Swiss accident survey) that collisions are not something to worry about. From my own personal experiences I argued that collisions ARE something to worry about, particularly if skiing on green and blue runs.
Anyway, just reading the latest copy of the Daily Mail Ski & Snowboard magazine, it seems that collisions on French pistes are in fact a very real threat. Apparently, on French pistes alone there were 14,400 collisions reported last season and they were particularly concerned by the number of head injuries and broken bones resulting from such collisions. Interestingly there were only 2100 incidents involving skiers hitting stationary objects like trees or lift supports. It also went on to note that the majority of the collisions were due to people skiing well beyond their own limits. This report is more in line with my own experiences than the earlier Swiss report, which claimed that only 5% of incidents involved more than one person.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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I wonder how many of the anti-helmet brigade let their kids ride bikes without a helmet on ??
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I have been riding bikes for 35 years without a helmet. Bizarrely, I am not dead and nor have my parents been locked up. |
You are a sample of 1, therefore not very representative. It's a bit like saying you haven't died in a car crash or had terminal cancer in 35 years, so nobody else will.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Grimsby Ranger wrote: |
The thing that bugs me though is the way way most on this thread who do wear one expect everyone else to follow suit, why should we? We all know it's safer to wear one than not but it's our choice.
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I don't think either of those statements are typically true. Most people who wear helmets are not particularly bothered whether others choose to wear them or not. I for one couldn't care less what you choose to wear, although I would always recommend a helmet. I've also come across quite a few non-helmet wearers who insist that skiing with a helmet has no benefit at all, or can be actually more dangerous. |
The theme on this thread to me from most people who wear helmets feel that everyone should, comments like you're mad or the costs of health care so you should etc. I suspect the vast majority of people on the slopes aren't particularly bothered if I do or don't. Not much of an argument from me about the benefits as I said I've teenage kids who I want to wear helmets, perhaps shouldn't have said 'we all know'. It's people who'd like to take away my personal choice that I don't like.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Grimsby Ranger wrote: |
The theme on this thread to me from most people who wear helmets feel that everyone should, comments like you're mad or the costs of health care so you should etc. I suspect the vast majority of people on the slopes aren't particularly bothered if I do or don't. Not much of an argument from me about the benefits as I said I've teenage kids who I want to wear helmets, perhaps shouldn't have said 'we all know'. It's people who'd like to take away my personal choice that I don't like. |
I think you're getting mixed up with well intentioned recommendations that everyone should consider wearing a helmet. Only a very small number of extremists would actually insist that everyone must wear a helmet. That is definately not "most people".
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Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster, I don't think significant numbers of my childhood friends are dead or in care either.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, I don't think significant numbers of my childhood friends are dead or in care either. |
So on that basis, are you suggesting I shouldn't be wearing a helmet for either skiing or biking? How useful, thanks.
By the way I have a friend who smashed all his front teeth out and seriously messed up his face while downhill mountain biking without a full face helmet. poo-poo happens sometimes, but thankfully not very often.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have a friend who smashed all his front teeth out and seriously messed up his face while downhill mountain biking
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Hmmm, yes I used to do a lot of that on a housing estate in one of Edinburgh's dormitory towns.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I haven't read all this - I read page 1 and scanned through p.5.
I wear a helmet, my kids wear helmets, we all wear seatbelts in the car
No-one likes to be told what they should or shouldn't be doing.
Cost is sometimes an issue as to whether someone adopts safety equipment - however, helmets can be aquired relatively inexpensively. Back protectors are rather more costly.
What price safety?
If I could afford a backprotector I might do so - I hurt my back on holiday which involved a tumble that could have aggrevated an old back injury.
What I find a little puzzling is why those that can afford to purchase something that may reduce their chances of slope 'downtime' due to injuries don't.
I know that many people like Lizzard's example of riding her bicycle have skied for years and have never been injured in a manner that could be prevented by the safety gear you are chosing not to wear, but that doesn't mean your luck will hang out for your next trip down the slope.
I suppose its down to how you perceive the risk. Some people will choose to take the risk others won't.
I just wonder if the Piste Patrol is called out - perhaps in bad weather to take someone off the mountain with an injury that could be avoided had safety equipment been worn, is this fair?
OK, you will never prevent a broken leg unless you stop skiing, but if you've tumbled and struck a rock or tree with your head a helmet could be difference between skiing down and completing a holiday rather than a trip in a helicopter and possible long term injury.
I don't have a problem skiing with people who don't wear safety equipment - particularly helmets, so long as they don't mind the fact that I do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, your last point seems to be contradicted by the two before it.
And to answer your question, Yes. All injuries could be prevented if you wear enough armor and ski slowly enough. Piste patrol are there to rescue injured skiers, not judge them for how much safety gear they chose to wear.
(P.S. I chose to wear a helmet (now), but don't feel the need to attempt to apply guilt trips to those who dont )
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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This helmet wearing thing is becoming a religion.
There are people out there who simply do not commit crime or acts harmful to their fellow men and so do not believe the need to take up a religion to get their souls salvaged. They make sure their actions in life are fair, equitable and just and do not a need a God to judge for them.
It is the same in skiing, There are steps skiers/boarders can take to avoid self-inflicted injuries and collision with others. They choose not to wear a helmet for their own reasons.
Many people believe in god so that they can go to heaven. They lose nothing by committing to a religion. It can be the same for wearing a helmet. There are different religions and so there are different helmets too. You can wear one like those used by mountain bikers, full face helmet as a policeman or just nick one from a construction site.
Why can't we let others to choose what they like to wear or believe?
Remember when you persuading people to wear a helmet your well intention is no different to that of someone preaching his religion.
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| Megamum wrote: |
................
What I find a little puzzling is why those that can afford to purchase something that may reduce their chances of slope 'downtime' due to injuries don't............. |
It's a question of risk assessment. If the risk is perceived to be negligible, why cater for it? Do you insist you children wear helmets walking to school? Neither did Mrs a or I. But it is conceivable they could have an accident for which a helmet might reduce the chances of injury.
Skiers must, of course make their own risk assessments with regard to skiing helmets. As part of the joy of skiing is freedom in an open space, one appreciates others not instructing on the merits of their decisions.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 24-02-08 19:44; edited 1 time in total
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I suppose its down to how you perceive the risk. Some people will choose to take the risk others won't.
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I did post this in my response above.
OK, I fully admit to being pro-helmet, but in terms of my points contradicting each other - I FULLY intended that they did so to demonstrate that I do see both sides of the argument.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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I have a friend who smashed all his front teeth out and seriously messed up his face while downhill mountain biking
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Hmmm, yes I used to do a lot of that on a housing estate in one of Edinburgh's dormitory towns. |
I guess your idea of biking and mine are different. Just goes to show that one person's personal experiences are largely irrelevant in these debates. If you perceive a danger, then you may choose to wear a helmet and whatever other protection you see as being relevant. I'm actually quite happy to ski without a helmet (although I never do anymore), but I wouldn't even think about going hardcore mountain biking without wearing one.
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| Megamum wrote: |
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I suppose its down to how you perceive the risk. Some people will choose to take the risk others won't.
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I did post this in my response above.
OK, I fully admit to being pro-helmet, but in terms of my points contradicting each other - I FULLY intended that they did so to demonstrate that I do see both sides of the argument. |
...and in terms of your 'putting the piste patrol at risk' argument?
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FAQ
of skiing in Scotland 
But hey, I don't mind what choices anyone else makes. I'd be happier if my kids wore, but I'm not going to get dictatorial about it. 
