 Poster: A snowHead
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OK, a confession - my scepticism about fat skis for all mountain skiing has been eroded (sheepish nod to SZK).
Just got back from a long weekend in Alagna (plan to post a trip report). There was upto a metre of snow a couple of days before we arrived. The wind got up and created a mixture of wind buff, breakable crust, heavy wind blown and patches of nice powder - all in all lots of fun but quite challenging.
I found that I struggled to keep my tip of my 174 stormrider xls (75mm in the waist) out in the crust and heavy stuff. Our guide was on K2 Public Enemies and suggested that we hire something with more surface area. The shop had Salomon Guns. I took out the 188s (I'm 176 tall and about 77kg so would have probably taken 181s but they didnt have any). These are twin tips, 100mm in the waist but quite shaped (big tails and tips) and have a 23m radius (versus the 18m of my stormriders). I guess they are the descendents of the infamous "blue noodle" pocket rockets and then 1080 Guns.
I have to say that I had fun:
1. in 188 that's PLENTY of surface area - makes them very forgiving off-piste and allows you to get more turns by straight-lining out the bottom where on other skis you'd get stuck
2. the fat tails (and I guess relatively soft flex) are excellent for dropping off things. I'm no hucker but when you are off piste (certainly in Alagna) you find yourself needing to drop 5 feet or so off boulders, walls, outcrops, etc from time to time. With these things you can just sit back on the fat tails and not worry about sinking or going over the tips
3. on piste they were much easier to handle than I expected. Partly this is just the fact that they aren't some 40m radius monster for straightlining Alaskan faces, they actually have some shape. I found that on firm (but not icy) pistes I could carve a nice range of turn shapes. Knee angulation is very strenuous due to the width but hip angulation worked just fine. The length made them very stable at speed. Now they don't give you the almost surgical precision that you get with something like the Stormriders and I guess they struggle on ice but in most piste conditions they were lots of fun. Surprising I didn't really find them heavy going in the bumps - sure you can't carve your way around the bumps but you can use old school unweighting and pivotting to ski them fluidly. The one area where they are painful is when you need to shed speed in tight crowded pistes - it really burns to edge check with all that width.
All in all, I really think I could live with them as my only pair of skis. So I'd like some thoughts about a potential fat ski purchase...
1. how fat should I go? In practice, I'm not going to be getting rid of the Stormriders so that could mean that I can afford to go fatter than I would otherwise go for a one ski quiver. On the other hand, I won't always want to travel with two pairs... I'm thinking around 100mm in the waist is good but any other thoughts?
2. how long? 188 seemed huge to look at but seemed quite manageable. I think a lot of this was down to the side cut. I'm thinking I like the flexibility of something that I can carve around the piste and am inclined to stick to around a 20-25m turn radius. Gues this could be a shorter but less shaped ski as an alternative
3. how stiff? I suspect that the Guns are seen as quite a soft ski. Stormriders are certainly not. I'm not really sure why I would need a stiff ski for mainly off-piste and I guess stiff skis surf a bit less well and are less forgiving on landings. Thoughts?
4. Given all that, what skis should I consider? Like I say, the Guns were a giggle, I could live them but I was also think Volkl Mantras or Gotamas.
5. Finally, bindings - are these skis just too big for AT bindings like Freerides?
ANy thoughts appreciated,
J
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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1. how fat should I go? In practice, I'm not going to be getting rid of the Stormriders so that could mean that I can afford to go fatter than I would otherwise go for a one ski quiver. On the other hand, I won't always want to travel with two pairs... I'm thinking around 100mm in the waist is good but any other thoughts?
Depends where you're skiing most, but 90mm in icier areas is fine, 110mm in softer areas is too.
2. how long? 188 seemed huge to look at but seemed quite manageable. I think a lot of thi was down to the side cut. I'm thinking I like the flexibility of something that I can carve around the piste and am inclined to stick to around a 20-25m turn radius. Gues this could be a shorter but less shaped ski as an alternative
Around the 180-185 mark is probably good for you, going longer can't really hurt - 188s probably don't have a 188 running length due to their twin anyway.
3. how stiff? I suspect that the Guns are seen as quite a soft ski. Stormriders are certainly not. I'm not really sure why I would need a stiff ski for mainly off-piste and I guess stiff skis surf a bit less well and are less forgiving on landings. Thoughts?
Stiff skis charge through cruddy snow and rail better, but prefer more speed and are probably less forgiving on landings. For a one ski quiver, a bit stiffer (or a lot stiffer than guns) is probably a good idea. For a specific off piste ski, it depends how you ski.
4. Given all that, what skis should I consider? Like I say, the Guns were a giggle, I could live them but I was also think Volkl Mantras or Gotamas.
Look at Mission/Punishers, Line Prophet 90s, Volkl Mantras, Line Prophet 100s, K2 Seths, Volkl Gotamas, Scott P4s for a start - that's in smaller to wider order. (there're loads more, these are just ones I've skiied and liked)
5. Finally, bindings - are these skis just too big for AT bindings like Freerides?
Not really, but Dukes are the binding for this application...
ANy thoughts appreciated,
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=35008&highlight= is probably worth a read, even if it is pretty much the entire  population telling me I'm an idiot 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm 5'9" (175cm) and weigh 11st 6lb - remember that a ski doesn;t know how tal you are, but does know how heavy you are and that matters - and have skiied the pas 4 years on 165cm Pocket Rockets. I've just purchased some 169cm Movement Flames and spent the last week in Courmayeur. On piste, they were blinding skis, far better than the PRs, but like you I struggled off piste. I'm also considering a fatter ski than the flames - maybe sticking with movement and getting a pair of thunders, maybe something else.
I'm also considering whether to look at AT bindings - anyone got any advice as I've only ever had regular DH bindings (salomon s912Ti on the PRs and Vist 411 Titanal on the flames)., e.g. can I use my regular ski boots in them, is one better than another, is it not worth bothering unless I get skins to match etc etc
BTW if you;re going for two pairs but sticking with regular bindings then consider a VIST speedlock plate on each and just one set of bindings than can be easily swapped?
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My main skis are Movement Gladiators which are 92mm at the waist and 183 in length. They are brilliant off piste and can really destroy any form of crust with the right technique. I have sparks as well (similar to flames like nbt has), I find they lack a little off piste and my Gladiators can hold an edge just as well.
I have to say they my Gladiators fantastic on piste, especially on soft(ish) moguled runs. I find that I can just charge straight through them and just carry my speed very well. I've never liked the Salomon 1080 range as I find them a little flimsy, although I've not tried this seasons ones so I can't comment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have just replaced my Stormriders (because 1 has deformed) with a pair of Missions , and tho a different ski i had a great time on them last week in La Rosier. They felt great through everything , crust,soft and windblown(not much ice about). they took about a run to get the feel of and i'm more than happy with the Stockli replacements. First time i've been able to '8' all the instructors turns off piste 
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I'm slowly creeping up on fatter skis too. Might be worth trying Head iM88s as a fat allrounder. I have the iM82s which perform very well almost anywhere. It's hard to justify carrying a second pair to be honest.
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mistermouse, they're very good on ice too as I discovered in Ischgl over Christmas 
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I'm looking forward to getting more snowheads trying the 09 Icelantics at the EoSB, Pilgrims with a 90mm waist in 179, Nomads with 105mm waist in 181 and Shamans with 110mm waist in 184.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think something in the 95-105mm range is pretty optimal for European conditions. Sidecut is a matter of taste. I can't quite get my head round the smallness of some turning radiuses - Missions have a smaller radius than my on piste carver skis (Atomic SX11s) which just seems wrong somehow!
I would certainly give the Mantras and the Goats a look. Goats are brilliant fun in soft snow but not really up to it on hard pistes (they're OK but you can't really rail on them). Haven't tried Mantras but people say they hold a good edge and are quite a bit stiffer than the Goats.
My day to day ski is the Dynastar Legend Pro. If you want something that feels like a fatter version of the Stocklis, they may be the answer. Quite a long radius (28m I think - might be getting more sidecut in next year's version). Or maybe stick with Stockli and go for the DP Pro. GrahamN seemed to like them on our trip to La Grave next year.
You could stick freerides on any of them. Dukes would probably better if you're only skinning for an hour or so and want to spend the cash
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kiwi1, I'm definitely up for trying some Nomads if I turn up.
George_1 doesn't stop going on about them..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Spikyhedgehog wrote: |
My main skis are Movement Gladiators which are 92mm at the waist and 183 in length. They are brilliant off piste and can really destroy any form of crust with the right technique. I have sparks as well (similar to flames like nbt has), I find they lack a little off piste and my Gladiators can hold an edge just as well.
I have to say they my Gladiators fantastic on piste, especially on soft(ish) moguled runs. I find that I can just charge straight through them and just carry my speed very well. I've never liked the Salomon 1080 range as I find them a little flimsy, although I've not tried this seasons ones so I can't comment. |
Another shout for the Glads, I've got 2 sets, one with Freerides plusses on (so brakes certainly go that wide).
Find them brilliant all over the hill (they are pretty stiff). Length is no problem as their twin tipped and so feel much shorter (i think this years version have a longer length available too . Also recently acquired a set of movement goliaths but aint yet had the occasion to let loose on them yet (they feel super-douper stiff).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Apart from the Stoeckli DP Pro suggestion, I think you're all wrong. Nordica Dobermann SL-Rs are the only truly all round ski out there. 
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jedster, whilst trying all the above skis, give the K2 Apache Coomba a go too. My choice.
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You know it makes sense.
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kiwi1,
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I'm looking forward to getting more snowheads trying the 09 Icelantics at the EoSB
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and I'm looking forward to trying some (foolishly last year I didn't take the opportunity  )
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks to all for the input.
I'm a little wary of Legend Pro/DP Pro - I think I could ski them OK but I have a hunch that they are just a bit much for my style of skiing (i.e. I might find that I need to ski a bit straighter and faster than I really want to - I know, wuss).
The Guns have made me question my prejudices a little - I found I could rail them (despite their softness) albeit not tested on REALLY hard pistes. That said I don't like Salomons reputation for poor durability and suspect that something between 181 and 188 might be optimal for me when it gets a bit tighter (trees etc).
Looks like Movement Goliath in 184 or Volkl Mantra also in 184 should be top of my demo list with perhaps a run on Legend Pros/DP Pros as a comparison. That said, Mythic Riders and Stormrider XXXL look quite interesting too...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Salomons next year are all getting wood cores I think, and there's a 100mm mini-rocker freeride number coming out which sounds very interesting. Rossi also have some. I was thinking of trying to get a pair of something large to compliment my public enemy (all round skinny ski ) at the end of this season, but some of next years stuff looks like it might be well worth waiting for.
Anyone here tried the Sir Francis Bacon? Looks damn silly on paper but potentailly a whole bunch of fun.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jedster, I ski my LPs like a wuss most of the time. i reckon you should give them a whirl. i bought mine in a sale and was a bit scared but now i love them and will ski them until they fall to bits. another other thing to consider is the Legend Pro XXL which now comes in a 187. supposedly they are a bit softer than the normal Pros and a bit more forgiving. they do have a pretty hooodge radius though. guess it depends how important it is to be able to carve turns. in soft snow, straight skis actually make it a bit easier to vary the radius of your turns and are generally a bit less likely to "do their own thing". the downside is lots of skidding on harder snow
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| nbt wrote: |
| I'm also considering whether to look at AT bindings - anyone got any advice as I've only ever had regular DH bindings (salomon s912Ti on the PRs and Vist 411 Titanal on the flames)., e.g. can I use my regular ski boots in them, is one better than another, is it not worth bothering unless I get skins to match etc etc |
Unless you wear boots with a touring sole or skin up hills, I don't see any reason to select a touring binding.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 24-01-08 15:40; edited 1 time in total
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I used 185cm Pocket Rockets for year's until they were just too knackered, then hired K2 Seth's for a couple of trips, and have recently bought a pair of Scott Mission's (last year's but the same construction and shape as this years).
Both the Seth's and Mission's are better skis than the Pocket Rocket's were, although I loved them at the time. The Mission's have the edge for me though over the Seth's for their true all-mountain versitility. They're fantastic off-piste, and more than hold their own on piste, more so than the Seth's.
A mate has Volkl Mantra's which also seem very similar and as good as the Scott Mission's.
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fatbob, how many slalom racers do you see on 100mm skis? Whereas I can ski anything I like on my Dobies. Q.E.D.
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David Murdoch, how many freeride skiers do you see on SL-R's? I can still ski anything on my Gladiators.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| fatbob, how many slalom racers do you see on 100mm skis? Whereas I can ski anything I like on my Dobies. Q.E.D. |
Is that so you can wear your cat suit ALL of the time? 
Until I put telemark bindings on my Prophets (130mm underfoot) I can ski gates faster than most average skiers on SL skis. 18m sidecut radius and very carvey.
Jedster can you keep the Stormriders for when it's really hard pack? If yes, start a ski quiver with something fun like a Gotama (or even a Katana), Seth Pistols, Faction 3 Zero or similar.
If you get rid of the Stormriders then get a Mantra.
Enjoy.
edit: for sense making...
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| fatbob, how many slalom racers do you see on 100mm skis? Whereas I can ski anything I like on my Dobies. Q.E.D. |
Slightly unfair comparison - how many ski movie powder hounds & heli guides do you see on 165 slaloms? Dobies are however fine skis I can see why you're attached to them & lets not forget you have the technique off piste.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Spikyhedgehog, gates?
parlor, yes.
parlor, I would not want to use "average" skiers as my benchmark, thank you. I am certainly unconventional, and hopefully not average.
fatbob, Umm, I don't really think so. 
In the day and not so long ago there was a particular Warren Miller, circa 1996 IIRC (and, no, that's not so long ago) , where every single skier appeared to be on Rossi 9X skinny slalom skis. And doing some pretty impressive heli-assisted (?) first descents of pretty outrageous AK peaks with interestingly acrobatic air mid-route too.
At the time the overwhelmingly prevalent "mass market" off piste ski was the Dynastar Vertical 4X4; considered very fat (?).
I have also had a week with a heli-guide who skied 200cm Atomic skinny touring skis - as he put it, "If it's thigh deep - I'd like to be thigh deep" - As opposed to skating on top as though it was custard.
Who ever wanted to ski custard?
P.S. I'm sorfectly peber
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You can skate on custard? I think you need to work on your cooking.
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Cunners, you need to watch more Brainiac..
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You know it makes sense.
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get a DP Pro in 184 with Fritcshi Freeride and grow into them.... Soft tip, stiff tail, stunning.
Obviously far better in a 201 cm...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Murdoch, I think 9X was a GS ski. Back then it would have been a 9S with the yellow and black livery and nasty tip protectors. Successor to the 7S (black and green) with 7G in a fetching purple - particularly nice with matching Look XP turntables in purple and yellow...
Those were the days. I might have to drag then out of the attic for a shimmy tomorrow I think...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Powderhound, you are quite right. It was indeed the 9S that I'm thinking of (doh! - having a pair in my garage too). The 7S was originally (and best) in silver and turquoise, then went black/green then yellow/purple before the upgrade to the yellow and black 9S. My silver & turquoise ones had lovely cherry red Look ZRs. One of my all time favourite skis - completed with fluo pinky orange Tecnica TNTs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DM,
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I have also had a week with a heli-guide who skied 200cm Atomic skinny touring skis - as he put it, "If it's thigh deep - I'd like to be thigh deep" - As opposed to skating on top as though it was custard.
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I have a fair amount of sympathy with this argument and I learnt to ski powder on K2 SLCs 200cm which were very similar to K2 Extremes (or Dynastar Verticals) but a bit stiffer. I reckon I could still manage light fluffy powder on skinny skis. If you read back to the top of the thread, you'll see that what motivated me to experiment was quite deep but badly wind effected snow (alternating between lght stuff, dense stuff, crusty stuff and windpack). Frankly I have never been good enough to do anything other than try to survive these kind of conditions on skinny skis* - fats allow me to actually ski it for fun.
* I do realise that there are people who can manage this conditions with grace and fluiditidy on any skis you give them - I just recognise my limitations
Parlor,
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Jedster can you keep the Stormriders for when it's really hard pack? If yes, start a ski quiver with something fun like a Gotama (or even a Katana), Seth Pistols, Faction 3 Zero or similar.
If you get rid of the Stormriders then get a Mantra.
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Yeah - I can completely see your point.
Now just to prolong the thread .... I have a pair of Atomic REX in 184 that were an ebay bargain. I mounted them with freerides and have used them for a bit of touring. If I had them with me in Alagna, I'd probably just have skied them instead. If I buy some fat skis then I'd be inclined to lift take the freerides off the atomics. The fats would then be OK for day tours and perhaps the odd hut to hut tour. If I found myself doing more multi day trips then I guess I'd get a lighter set up. Guess an alternative would be to put the freerides on my stormriders - heavier but shorter length probably compensates.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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do you have dedicated touring boots?
i'd be inclined to stick some sort of touring binding on the fats on the basis that this adds so much more versatility (unless you think you'll be able to cope with touring adapters eg alpine treckers)
the REXs make a pretty good touring ski IMO - light and pretty solid. so i'd keep those for hut to hut, but maybe stick dynafits on there to really save weight? depends whether you want to invest in some dynafit compatible boots of course
maybe pick up some cheap alpine bindings on ebay and slap them on the stormriders for hooning around when the snow is packed?
what a conundrum! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Someone has
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jedster, you know I'm just being curmudgeonly. I would really like to find something a little more uncompromised than the SLs but so far haven't had dedicated time. I think Stormriders probably would fit the bill. I'm surprised yours didn't, just from their reputation/reviews. Maybe try the XXLs?
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jedster, don't stick freerides on a ski that you expect to ski hard, they suck, especially a fat ski. To be fair, it's not that they suck, it's just that now with Dukes I don't see why anyone would ski Freerides. Dynafit for touring. Dukes for skiing with the odd side skin.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DM,
don't get me wrong, I've loved the stormriders in just about everything (this is the fourth season on them) but at 174 I was finding it difficult to keep the tips out in heavy snow. I could easily keep using them and just hire fats when the conditions dictate but you know how it is... It may be that XXL in 184 would be ideal for the only ski but as I already have XL in 174 it would be more complementary to go fatter I reckon.
Arno,
I have denalis (red ones) which rules out the dynafit option. I am regretting not getting a dynafit compatible boot... THink you're right about the REXs though - I was just thinking about economising on new bindings. I reckon 190 Goats are probably a bit OTT for me - uphill kickturns sound tortuous on those (being 5'9"). SPort Conrad seems to have a decent deal on Goats and Dukes...
J
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jedster, try before you buy and all that, but think twice before going short with Goats. the kick tail takes a lot of length off them. i really liked the 190s (but I'm 95kg, 6ft 2) and couldn't imagine going shorter
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FAQ
