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forget shaped carver - RAX Generation 2008

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hello, Snow Heads !

We have learned from your criticism and incorporated it in new 2008 models.



- no back seat, no leaning back required to make fins carve and control
- front pair of fins was shifted forward to the heel, now bearing the skier's weight directly
- muscles and ligaments of foot, shin and calf are no longer strained on hard pack snow,
the centered stance on short ski is the best remedy for shin bang
- one single model covers freeride and piste, soft snow and ice as well as a wide range of skills and speeds
- the binding has been mounted on the diagonal carrier, such improving the adjustability and accessibility
- the diagonal carrier is less steep (4 degrees instead of 8 to 16 degrees before)
- the Rax concept can now be applied to All Mountain and shaped skis

All these improvements base upon one single idea:
shifting the diagonal carrier forward by 25 to 40 cm and mounting the binding on it.
This idea emerged last October as an ultimate skiing gear for icy couloirs
and was quickly recognized as "the solution" for normal skiing.

The Rax Generation 2008 will expand into the realm of fat powder and shaped carver skis,
just adding the fin control and possibly a hydrofoil for surfing on powder snow.
We shall see their performance in powder or slalom competition.

Older Rax models remain excellent freeride skis for all soft snow arts, in trees and corned snow (Firn)
as well as in heavy snow and soft moguls.


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 23-01-08 23:17; edited 1 time in total
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I always prefer having an erection as steep as possible
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Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Tom from Austria,

Are they different to the pair I skied last Saturday? The fins look to be now under the heel rather than behind it.
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Being a bit stupid now - but isn't that just a pair of blades with harscheisen mounted under the heel piece? Toofy Grin

DB, how did it work out?
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Tom from Austria, put me down for a dozen Tom - Sehr Schon Laughing Laughing
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stoatsbrother wrote:
Being a bit stupid now - but isn't that just a pair of blades with harscheisen mounted under the heel piece? Toofy Grin

DB, how did it work out?


Agreed with Tom to comment after he put up a new thread as he's continually fine tuning them.

I'll give a full report in the next day or two.
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DB, looking forward to Reading the full report DB
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DB wrote:
Tom from Austria,

Are they different to the pair I skied last Saturday? The fins look to be now under the heel rather than behind it.


DB, you skied



Your ski has two pairs of fins with (nearly) horizontal edges. 4 cm long front fins are optically a part of the cover plate.
The ski in this thread has just one pair of (really sharp) fins. being positioned 5 cm behind your front fins.
It means that they are located between your front and rear fins.
All other parameters of these two models are nearly identical.

The ski in this thread was first tested on Sunday and behaved surprisingly well,
so it became our new flagship.
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Thanks Tom, I remember it looking a bit different.
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Introduction
========
So anyway, on a wet Saturday morning I met Tom at a motorway service station south of Vienna. We put my stuff into his car and drove south in the rain. I'd guess Tom is about the same young age as David Goldsmith perhaps younger (only Tom is still skiing). Tom had around 8 pairs of Rax edition skis in his boot (give or take ca 10 pairs). The rain certainly didn't dampen his enthusiasm to demonstrate his creations and around 45 mins later we were taking our first gondola ride of the day at Semmering. Semmering is a small family resort with a family run, a few steepish reds and a slightly steeper black. http://www.bergfex.com/semmering-hirschenkogel/

Conditions
=======
The conditions were great ............... for Scotland Wink. A temp of around 4 Deg C with wind, driving rain and intermittent fog. The light was pretty flat too and sadly we never got round to doing a video (maybe next time). There had been a good base that had been snowed on and then rainned on, it was suffering in places though (brown patches). Most runs were mashed potatoes on a bumpy hard base below. It was hard to tell what was just a mound of slush or a hidden ice mogul. Skiers of all levels were suffering, there was hardly a run skied where someone wasn't picking their skis out of the snow - including me but more about that later.

Tom on Rax skis me on conventional skis
============================
I took a couple of runs on my own skis first just to see how Tom rode the Rax skis and examine the terrain before 'strapping on the Rax'. I'd opted to take my wider all mountain skis (90mm underfoot) as they were the only ones that fit my alpine boots (tend to use downhill oriented touring boots all the time these days but Tom didn't have a Rax ski with touring binding). Tom skied pretty much the same as in the video only faster. His Rax skis were near horizontal with the tips out of the snow, when the slope was ca 30 deg his skis were often around 10 deg. It looked unconventional but on the red/black pistes he shot down the fall-line and I needed to pick up quite a bit of speed while committing to the fall-line to get past him. Something I only managed once when there was just the two of us on a steeper piste. On the flater pistes however I was able to put in larger carves whereas the drag on Tom's skis left him behind.

The moment of truth
==============
We go back to the car and Tom hands me the blue ski above. Like his other skis it's an older straight ski that Tom had picked up second hand and modified himself. It was clear this was a one man project, it was his enthusiasm for skiing and not a big company development budget that was driving this. Remember thinking what the hell am I doing? I'd never skied a straight ski before let alone a saw off pair with fins. The butterflys in my stomach weren't helped by Tom confirming in the gondola on the way up that I would be the third person ever to ski the Rax ski. So I click in the old bindings and push off.

The first thing I noticed is that on the flats the fins drag a little. As we descend down a red run my feet start to wiggle from side to side independently. Instead of edging and angulating it was possible just make a turn by twisting flat feet. It was strange and took a bit of time before I could keep my feet parralell but it was easier to stay upright than when I first learnt to ski. Tom was zipping around shouting tips and encouragement. After a short run I managed to stop the skis flapping around so much and started to get a bit of confidence and a lot more control. Now these things don't have a reverse gear, don't try to travel backwards unless you are able to do at least 3 backward summersaults. I only managed a half. rolling eyes Where I would normally curve round on my normal skis and then do a quick little reserve turn at the side of the piste I'd managed to confuse everyone around me by just throwing myself on the floor backwards. Tom was soon there, a few more tips and we were off again.

Later Tom explained it was on the steeps where the Rax skis really came into their own so it was off to the black slope although it was more brown and bumpy in places. Shock Tom explained that straight down the fall line & short turns were what was needed. On normal skis it's something that only a much better bump skier than I would manage but on the Rax ski it was possible. The drag slowed things down a bit and I was having fun until my ski caught something underneath and I was out of the binding - (this may of been because the binding wasn't set up correctly for me). Later I was descending the steeper slopes faster than most of the skiers around but still not at the same pace as Tom. To begin with I was tense and I was begining to feel the strain on my legs so it was time to change back to normal skis before I broke something.

Back to normal skis
==============
In comparison to the rax skis my skis suddenly felt super slippy. I spent the next two runs doing a full on Bode Miller in the back seat. Eventually I found the middle of the ski again but it was unnerving until I did. In comparison the conventional skis acquired a higher speed but the need to turn around bumps etc meant the Rax skis were quicker down to the bottom of a steep hill in mushy bumpy snow. Tom tried a longer 160cm rax si and after a few more runs we decided to call it a day.


Pro's
====
Something different
Excel on steeper slopes where the snow is less than perfect
Quick turning


Con's
====
Doesn't glide like a normal ski/flat piste performance
Can't slide backwards (may be restrictive in certain circumstances)
Skis are short = less surface area = less float (although I didn't test in powder)
Very steep pistes (50 deg+ slope) might be a problem


Conclusion
========

Probably not a total replacement for the conventional ski (at least not for me) but another tool to take out when the conditions warrant it.
Maybe later skis with greater surface area will provide a better all-mountain solution.

Good to see Tom pushing the development of the ski further.
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DB, Thanks for your thoughtful and interesting review! Very Happy
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good review, glad you got to test them in the end.

Sounds like a shame about the bad conditions though ?
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You know it makes sense.
DB wrote:
...
The conditions were great ............... for Scotland ... Most runs were mashed potatoes on a bumpy hard base below. It was hard to tell what was just a mound of slush or a hidden ice mogul. Skiers of all levels were suffering,....


Thank you for your straight tip, DB.
We should start selling Rax skis in Scotland !!
In New England (icy) or in Vancouver (heavy, wet snow).
Only those who are dissatisfied with their skiing performance
may ask for another gear.
For well groomed runs we could offer nothing but easy turns on fins without skidding. Laughing
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Nealglover wrote:
Sounds like a shame about the bad conditions though ?


In good conditions, (e.g. well groomed piste without slush, fresh powder) I probably wouldn't of seen any advantage in the using the Rax ski. There are often times when the steeper offpiste is cut up slushy mashed potatoes. It's more difficult to turn on normal skis in these conditions as the slush is unforgiving of the slightest mistake. Straightlining would create too much speed esp. in the trees. This is where the Rax ski comes into it's own, one can basically ski bad offpiste conditions most skiers would avoid on conventional skis.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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DB, Good review, glad you guys managed to get together at last. I wouldn't say that you have been converted, but it's good that you had a (mainly) positive experience.
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Hi, Snowheads.
This weekend we are testing Rax skis in Obertauern near Salzburg.
You can join us (tel *43 650 5252550) or we can visit you if you are skiing east of Innsbruck.

Since the last weekend we have assembled the first shaped carver with fins
and the Ultimate Rax 2008: a skiing ice axe for extreme hard and steep walls.
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DB, what an amazing narrative. I think I get the picture - they do work well where it is steep - in pretty much all conditions. But maybe where there are long traverses and shallow runouts you would get left behind by a party on more conventional skis? Might be fun if Tom from Austria, dropped by us at Wengen at the MSB.
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Tom from Austria, Tom, may I ask if you approached the mainstream ski manufacturers with your business plan? Alternatively is there a 'Dragons Den' type TV show over there in Grostel land where you might be able to showcase your product to entrepeneurs? In short, what is you route to market?
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achilles wrote:
(Rax skis).. do work well where it is steep - in pretty much all conditions. But maybe where there are long traverses and shallow runouts you would get left behind by a party on more conventional skis? Might be fun if Tom from Austria, dropped by us at Wengen at the MSB.


You've got the message, achilles! Steep is beautiful ! But we also like damaged pistes, etc.

And we've got your message and built the first Big Rax (165cm) and a Carver Rax (150cm).

The latter allows you to carve, to "wedel" and to "rax".
The transition between the modi is seamless.
You can "wedel" (=classic turn) and "rax" (=fins are cutting) at the same time
and at each moment emphasize more or less one of these control elements.

This ski has only one pair of fins and that makes it different from older Rax models,
supporting just the "raxing" (=cutting the surface with the fins).
We will publish the photo of this Carver Rax soon.
Today I would offer DB this ski for the first ride.

Achilles, I would love it to ski with you in Wengen ! Today, at this minute !
For I prefer skiing to designing and assembling.
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Tom from Austria,
Not knocking your ingenuity but I have a few nagging doubts in my mind that perhaps you could address:

I can see a few problems with the concept of Rax as a freeride tool:
- Not being able to go backwards and sideslip to get out of really awkward spots.
- Lack of subtle edge control - don't think I'd want to be dropping cornices without that. It would be like doing it on race skis - done that once don't need to do it again! - but even worse! Shocked
- What happens when you (inevitably - see the bottom of my skis!) hit or have to ski/climb over a rock?

I also can see a few problems with it as a race tool:
- It is going to tear great chunks out of the course, therefore no course director will ever let you use them
- Carving a run on shaped skis (or unshaped skis even) does not seem to me that it causes a lot of drag - do the fins not do this?
- I presume you don't get the rebound you get from bending a carving ski?

Also do you have to look like you're wedeling to make them work - that would be the kiss of death!! wink
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DB, good that you managed to try them, there was alot of negative comments which I thought was out of order as nobody had actually given them a go, so well done. Very Happy

stuarth, Interesting to consider the limitations, but there are also limitations to boards (I can only go backwards when it is down hill wink ) and traditional skis that these Rax over come, I would suppose the whole point of these is that they work a bit like short skis in that you can easily walk or side walk with quite a bit of grip using the fins, and they are all about going straight down narrow off-piste runs rather than side slippng the first steep bit.

Any one fancy trying a simple two meter drop-in with them? Laughing
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rayscoops wrote:

stuarth, Interesting to consider the limitations, but there are also limitations to boards (I can only go backwards when it is down hill wink ) and traditional skis that these Rax over come, I would suppose the whole point of these is that they work a bit like short skis in that you can easily walk or side walk with quite a bit of grip using the fins, and they are all about going straight down narrow off-piste runs rather than side slippng the first steep bit.


I guess so, but you usually find somewhere where you need to "butter" the turn/entry to control speed.

Like this sort of thing http://www.gravityguides.com/photos/7/winter-ski-2006/118/stu-shoe-6stu-shoe-6 Straightlining would generally mean too much speed at the end of the ramp (not too much of a problem in this case but you know what I mean).
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stuarth wrote:
rayscoops wrote:

stuarth, Interesting to consider the limitations, but there are also limitations to boards (I can only go backwards when it is down hill wink ) and traditional skis that these Rax over come, I would suppose the whole point of these is that they work a bit like short skis in that you can easily walk or side walk with quite a bit of grip using the fins, and they are all about going straight down narrow off-piste runs rather than side slippng the first steep bit.


I guess so, but you usually find somewhere where you need to "butter" the turn/entry to control speed.

Like this sort of thing http://www.gravityguides.com/photos/7/winter-ski-2006/118/stu-shoe-6stu-shoe-6 Straightlining would generally mean too much speed at the end of the ramp (not too much of a problem in this case but you know what I mean).


The Rax ski enables you to 'turn on a sixpence', Tom could put in a few turns on the track or the soft snow above it to slow down. Tom would probably go straight down the fall-line to the side of where you skied though.
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DB, I think you seem to come to the conclusion that the Rax are quite versatile, but with certain (major) limitations, and maybe a fun thing to ride on a particular day depending on conditions. Whilst I am not a skier, I have followed this topic more to do with how new technology is perceived and accepted in to the main stream. I think it is great that you have made the effort to have a go on the Rax and give a real opinion that is neither biased for or against the Rax, and with the greatest respect to Tom from Austria, your view is more interesting than his (for obvious reasons) and others who have not used them.

One question, did you feel worried about injury to your self or others due to the fins, are they really like lethal blades as suggested by some of the previous err..... vocal.... posters a month or two ago?
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Quote:

I think it is great that you have made the effort to have a go on the Rax and give a real opinion that is neither biased for or against the Rax

Hear, hear.
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rayscoops wrote:
DB, I think you seem to come to the conclusion that the Rax are quite versatile, but with certain (major) limitations, and maybe a fun thing to ride on a particular day depending on conditions. Whilst I am not a skier, I have followed this topic more to do with how new technology is perceived and accepted in to the main stream. I think it is great that you have made the effort to have a go on the Rax and give a real opinion that is neither biased for or against the Rax, and with the greatest respect to Tom from Austria, your view is more interesting than his (for obvious reasons) and others who have not used them.

One question, did you feel worried about injury to your self or others due to the fins, are they really like lethal blades as suggested by some of the previous err..... vocal.... posters a month or two ago?


You're right that I consider it as a quiver ski for certain conditions. Conditions that would be skiable on a normal ski but not without risk.

At first I was on the front of the Rax ski or I should say on the front half of a very short ski. Was expecting to headbutt the floor and loose a few teeth at any moment but it didn't happen. As the day went on Í became more comfortable and more centered on the ski. The turning radius is very short and so avoiding people is easier. Tom was able to dart all over the place with little effort whereas the longer turning radius of my normal skis made it much harder work. When the piste was busy I had to back off whereas Tom was off like a rabbit scared by a shot. In steep wet snow conditions the Rax ski is probably safer. I only fell twice, once during my unexpected backflip and once when the ski caught something underneath (this could of happened on a normal ski too). People around me were going down more times than Monica Lewinsky. When skiers/boarders collide it tends to be body parts and not skis that do the damage. The fins aren't as sharp as normal ski edges and I didn't come away thinking "wow these things could really do some damage".
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DB, cheers
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stuarth wrote:
...
I can see a few problems with the concept of Rax as a freeride tool:
1)- Not being able to go backwards and sideslip to get out of really awkward spots.
2) - Lack of subtle edge control - ...
3)- What happens when you (inevitably - see the bottom of my skis!) hit or have to ski/climb over a rock?

I also can see a few problems with it as a race tool:
4)- It is going to tear great chunks out of the course,...
5)-- that fins cause a lot of drag ..?
6)- I presume you don't get the rebound you get from bending a carving ski?

7)Also do you have to look like you're wedeling to make them work - that would be the kiss of death!! wink


Well, stuarth
1) you can sideslip (=skid on the edge) with Rax ski, except for Firn and Extreme Firn having huge fins below the gliding surface
but you cannot ride backwards ("fakie") on Rax
2) generally, edge control can be used alternatively to fin control. The latest Carver Rax 150 cm supports both controls at the same time.
3) When fins have been knocked by a rock under the ski, ski tail shoots in the height and ski tip dashes against the snow and stops the rotation
... and you already passed the rock, you are still standing and not knowing why !!
The explanation: front edges of all fins are not perpendicular to the slope, there are no potential hooks.
4) Fins are cutting rather than tearing, leaving a smooth double-line in hard pack snow or ice.
5) You are right, fins do not bring more speed yet more control. As a race tool they could win just a steep/icy slalom.
A good non-professional skier would not beat Cuche in downhill Kitzbuehel, however he could descend Kitz safely at the relatively high speed.
This is hardly possible with regular skis.
6) you do not need it
7) very latest models with one pair of fins ("Rax light") let you forget the border between "wedeling" and "raxing".
Unfortunatelly DB could not try them, they appeared later on the scene.
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Tom from Austria,
Thanks for the explanation, not quite sure I'm ready to hang up my Voelkls just yet, but it is good to see someone trying new things - I guess people thought the same about there 25555 Blizzards when shorter carving skis came out!! wink
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DB, shame there is no video Laughing Laughing
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rayscoops wrote:
DB, shame there is no video Laughing Laughing


Well, we had a terrible weather and the terrain at Semmering (closiest to the city of Vienna)
is not that attractive.
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Tom from Austria, I just wanted to see DB swinging his arms around sitting back on his heels Laughing but it seems the fins are more under foot on these versions of your Rax than the previous ones that seemed to be behind the heel, previously giving that 'leaning back' slightly comic appearance Very Happy
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rayscoops wrote:
Tom from Austria, I just wanted to see DB swinging his arms around sitting back on his heels Laughing


Sounds like you've already seen me ski on normal skis. Laughing
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Tom from Austria wrote:
...

The Rax Generation 2008 will expand into the realm of ...and shaped carver skis,
just adding the fin control ....
We shall see their performance in ... slalom competition.



Here is the promised marriage between the "carver technology" and the "rax technology":



The result is a "Rax light" as an opposite to previous "Rax brutal".
Tested last weekend in Obertauern on hard piste with fresh snow piles.
The juvenile beauty (150 cm) can "carve" and "rax" in a very fine way.
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red 27 wrote:
Tom from Austria, Tom, may I ask if you approached the mainstream ski manufacturers with your business plan? Alternatively is there a 'Dragons Den' type TV show over there in Grostel land where you might be able to showcase your product to entrepeneurs? In short, what is you route to market?


Believe me, I have offered Rax ski to Dragons Den.
No answer yet.

There is an opportunity to see and test the latest Rax skis next week in USA / NH:
Wednesday March 5 to Friday at Cannon,
Saturday March 8 and Sunday at Schneider Cup at Cranmore, North Conway
Monday March 10 in Vermont

Would be pleased to meet a Snowhead there.
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Great stuff.

After all the initial flak, DB has now been able to give an independent view.

One of the very best threads of 2008 - a nice change from posters slagging one another off about nothing.
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Latchigo wrote:
Great stuff.

After all the initial flak, DB has now been able to give an independent view.

One of the very best threads of 2008 - a nice change from posters slagging one another off about nothing.


Thanks, Latchigo.

Am just coming from USA/East Cost where snow conditions (ICE) were as bad as or even worse than in Scottland.
Myself and Rax skis learned to love them.
Local young skiers/boarders are enthusiastic about inexpensive recycled skis
which can ride down in the fall line and turn so quick
and need no grooming machines.

The assembling of Rax skis will start in Franconia/NH in October.
This is where Bode Miller was born and learned to ski.
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As they don't go backwards how well would they go with a touring binding to save messing about with skins (obviously when developed further for off-piste)?
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I am racing Derby de la Meije April 4.
From Mar 30 on we are in Les 2 Alpes and La Grave,
staying in residence Village near the base station
of Valentine chair lift in Les 2 Alpes.

You can test Rax skis !!
My mobile is * 43 650 5252550
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