 Poster: A snowHead
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Over in EpicSki, Bob Barnes describes good skiing: "Good skiing is skiing a slow enough line as fast as you can--WHEN you can!" There are many components to this, and you can learn a lot by readinghis post and the associated thread.
I say it like this: control speed by choosing your line, then ski that line as efficiently as you can.
The point is, if we "turn" to "slow down," then we tend to adopt a braking mindset for our turns. We tend to use a lot of bracing against the edges and aggressive digging into the snow to brake with a lot of extra energy.
If, instead, we use gravity as our friend to slow us (by turning up hill, for instance), then we find that it is far more effortless and that we can spend a lot more time carving than we ever thought.
I have spent much time this season working on line selection to control speed. I find that I tend to travel slower in terms of vertical feet per second, but that I am having more fun, traveling faster in linear feet per second, and using less energy overall.
How might this change your skiing experience, for those of you that aren't skiing this way (by my informal survey, that would be 80-90% of skiers and boarders on Colorado hills this winter).[/url]
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ssh-some very interesting thoughts etc by BB & others.I think you may have a slight advantage however;us Brits usually only have a week(2 at best)to hone our skills(annual ski hol)The British season barely throws up enough snow to dust the roof of yer garden shed!!Oh to spend an entire season on the snow.What are the employment opportunities in Colorado??I have no doubt that 99.9% of British skiers would improve dramatically given US conditions.Us Brits often talk in terms of "weeks" spent on the real stuff,as a guide to ability.Anyhow,the method described is,in essence,simple common sense.It does however suggest,if not demand,fairly wide areas/pistes.I,m recently back from Andorra where,on many of the reds I skied,it would be difficult to complete a smooth,full turn from top to bottom.Well,nearly so;but most would be forced to skid a few to wash off excessive speed.I dont see this as a bad thing if it maintains a skiers control.Off to France in 7wks.One more week to improve.That makes my season a grand total of 12 days skiing.Lifes a bitch,innit 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I completely understand! On the other hand, you can pop 'round the corner for tea pretty much any day of the week, wot? 
If you're trying to carve 100% of the time, you're right, you need a lot of terrain. However, that's not the only way to do this. You can "butter" your turns (think of spreading cream on a scone!) without braking as a result, continuing to use your line to control your speed. With new skis, you can make some pretty tight turns, too!
I am grateful to live in Colorado, that's certain. I will say that this is the first year in recent memory that I've gotten more than 10 days in, however, and that due entirely to my "job" as an instructor (in quotes because I actually end up paying for the privilege!). The snow ain't bad here, tho! 
Next weekend I'll have three more days on-snow (Copper on Saturday, then Breck on Sunday/Monday). Two of those are exam days, but they are still on-snow! I'm hoping to have around 35 days, but we'll have to see...
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Good god sir! have you no breeding? Everyone on "this" side of the pond instictively knows the that the ritual,to which you refer,is known as "tiffin".And as for mentioning cream scones,well 
Have been looking through my video/DVD collection.Have a very interesting video re ideal technique? Its an instructional video for an exercise machine(USA) It shows a skier carving down a gentle blueish run.Its remarkable in that the sequence lasts about 20mins,and this chap displays no variation at all!Left,right,left,right,left metronome fashion!I swear the cameraman must have fallen asleep,its hypnotic!!Its quite a challenge to watch it from start to finish.I dread to think what people,who have followed this instruction,think,when they discover most mountains have bumps and things!And where did they find a perfect piste that must be 5miles long??
Very gratefull for the input of a US instructor.I just know that,next time out,I shall have thoughts on buttered scones!!
Enjoy Breck & Copper Life is not fair
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ssh wrote: |
The point is, if we "turn" to "slow down," then we tend to adopt a braking mindset for our turns. We tend to use a lot of bracing against the edges and aggressive digging into the snow to brake with a lot of extra energy.
If, instead, we use gravity as our friend to slow us (by turning up hill, for instance), then we find that it is far more effortless and that we can spend a lot more time carving than we ever thought.
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Never a truer word spoken. If you doubt this, have a day out with a competent snowboarder. They ride the terrain and use it to help them control their speed. A good line is far more satisfying than just linking a million turns down the middle of a run.
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I'm no expert, but I would imagine that if you are skiing the slower line fast (what ssh is recommending) then should you hit ice, you probably will just ski straight across it - rather than thinking, "must turn, must turn".
Every time I've come a cropper on ice, it's been when I've been trying to slow myself down, rather than choosing where to ski...
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That's the only way to do it. As I've mentioned before I do mountain bike a fair bit, and on ice you simply do not try to turn or brake. Just accept that there's nothing you can do, aim for some place with traction and keep going.
On skiis it's a bit easier, but I use the same principle, aim at a pile of snow somewhere and only try to turn when I hit that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This line stuff is useful, I've tried to get line information out of ski school instructors but their normal response is "follow me". Not so bothered about ice but I don't like piles of snow because my legs tend to part company as I pass through them, which I find disconcerting 
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Well, stop using ESF, Ian 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Don't they usually say "it depends on what type of fish you're after" Ian? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| masopa wrote: |
I'm no expert, but I would imagine that if you are skiing the slower line fast (what ssh is recommending) then should you hit ice, you probably will just ski straight across it - rather than thinking, "must turn, must turn".
Every time I've come a cropper on ice, it's been when I've been trying to slow myself down, rather than choosing where to ski... |
Well, I don't think that you must. On my new skis with well-aligned boots, I find that I can carve across ice almost as easily as groomed. Ideally, I think that you want to do one of two things when there is ice:
- Choose your line to avoid the ice
- Ski slow enough that you can control your balance and edge on the ice
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Ice is peculier stuff  I learnt to ski at Tamworth(its a snowdome ssh)and I still ski there.There we have loads of ice;esp when the boarders have a good session and scrape the thin snow cover down the slope  You can,and do get used to it,and yes,you can carve,steer over it(after a fashion!!)Common sense tells you to avoid it;not always possible.Never met anyone who actually likes it(downhill racers excepted;not normal anyway?)but some have a morbid fear of it;not good!
We all know it can appear at any time.Makes sense to know how to deal with it?
Recently back from Soldeu;skied the black under the Telecabina(if you know it)with No1 son(he's 11)Looked great from the cabin.As usual,the reality was a little different.What looked like snow from a distance,turned out to be a frozen mass from the snowguns that start 1/2 way down the run What the hell,we were on our way down and cooking  I went down once(honest)but No1 stayed on his feet(even managed to deck a spaniard en route that froze in front of him:twisted: )It was fun and lifted our spirits for the whole of the week.
Perhaps,had we known,we would not have done it but,having decided we coped with what was in front of us and skied the run  Following day it snowed
but,by then,the wife was with us(blues only)so never got a second chance
Yes ssh,its the edge video.Think it must be on one of your 20mile trails??
You want to come to England,of your own free will??You "yanks" are stranger than I thought Tell you what,we'll do a life swop.I'll exchange you a winter here for a winter in Colorado;pleeeeeeese
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You know it makes sense.
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snowskisnow, not having been to a snowdome I can't comment but is it actually ice, i.e hard clear blue stuff that looks like glass and feels like rock, or is it simply frozen snow, hard white stuff that sounds horrible when you go over it ? If it's the former I'm impressed as normally nothing can turn on it as it's impossible for a ski edge to get a bite, if it's the later that's what downhill racers prefer
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hm, I've been to Tamworth. There are some thinly covered ice patches there (more than just frozen snow), but at times I've seen worse on mountain slopes (or at least larger sheets of ice).
Gotta say that I haven't yet found the trick to carving on sheet ice. My edges just go, with unpleasant effects if I'm seeking a high angle. So when I find myself on ice I just release the edges and slide laterally at the same time I'm moving ahead. It works pretty well without being perfect technique.
Though I did once manage to do a tight turn at high speed on a large sheet of ice. No idea how, I presume that the tree I was heading for helped me rapidly focus my skiing abilities.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Stated that way I've never skied on proper ice...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ian Hopkinson, you don't really "ski" on ice - it's more just a continuation of forward velocity!
Ice does hurt though...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The original article is pretty much what the Swiss ski instructors in Laax were teaching us - though put differently. Basically, try and avoid slides and use your edges all the time, complete your turns and only use your brakes when necessary. The emphasis on technique teaching seemed to advance everyone on a lot more (and improve most people's confidence) than the instruction received elsewhere (not that I want to turn this into a "this country better than that country" argument, as I wouldn't be able to comment, knowledgeably). I thought I was a reasonable skier until my one-off lesson - I'll be having a few more of those over the next few years. I know you can always learn, but sometimes we need to be reminded of that fact.
That said, I'm not sure where my instructor's exploding ducks came into it...
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| Cedric wrote: |
Gotta say that I haven't yet found the trick to carving on sheet ice. My edges just go, with unpleasant effects if I'm seeking a high angle. So when I find myself on ice I just release the edges and slide laterally at the same time I'm moving ahead. It works pretty well without being perfect technique.
Though I did once manage to do a tight turn at high speed on a large sheet of ice. No idea how, I presume that the tree I was heading for helped me rapidly focus my skiing abilities. |
So, you can do it, eh?
I have found that lateral alignment of my boots makes a huge difference in my ability to ski well on ice (or, at least, really hard snow!). The first time on snow after having my new boots aligned it actually scared me how well I could carve on the icy trails at Eldora.
I'm convinced that many of us need alignment work, but it is so very difficult to find the folks that really know how to do that. One of the many advantages to living in Colorado is that a couple of them live here, too!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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OK, SSH, I'll swap a summer over here (you can stay in my place, on 30mins from the nearest snow, Milton Keynes, any time of the year), and I'll take winter in Co.
Can't say fairer than that, eh?
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ssh;quick rundown on snowdome construction(as I understand it)Picture an indoor slope,some 170mtrs long,with a gradient of around 30/35 deg.From the top it goes down about 60mtrs then turns 90deg to the left.Carries on down,with a couple of bumps,to the bottom.Original structure formed in concrete and filled with cooling pipes.A base layer is built up,which is solid ice,to a depth of around 18".The "snow" is then placed,spread,rolled and pisted on that.The snow bonds(sort of)to the base and you have your snowdome slope.The slope area is kept at around 0deg. Obviously the snow is artificially made.This is where the problem starts.Artificial snow is much finer than the real deal;more akin to granulated sugar,and very dry(almost impossible to form a snowball)It seems to have a much looser bond to the base layer and is easily displaced;hence the exposed ice patches.These vary day to day From tabletop size,to patches as big as yer drive (english that is!,picture your average yank drive being the size of my road )Snowdomes get a lot of criticism at times.But,as I have often said,show me a realistic alternative and I will try it.And before anyone starts,I DONT ski on plastic  I leave that to those bent on self harm!!!!!
ssh,could you please explain what you mean by lateral alignment.I think I know where you're coming from but a bit more info would be welcome.
Always knew the yanks were a bit girly English winters a bit much for ya huh Come over here if ya think yer ard enough
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I'd say Tamworth is closer to a gradient of 10 degrees than to 30. Your average European black run is up to or around 35 degrees, I think. I'd be very surprised if MK was more than 15. WTFH, any opinions?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've read about them thar snowdome thingies... 
Believe it or not, we have manmade snow around here, too. Eldora, where I taught this season, was a high percentage of manmade. That's where I learned about the lateral alignment!
Lateral alignment has to do with making adjustments to boots (and, sometimes, bindings/skis) to get us into neutral on the skis. Before I was aligned this season, I was very under-edged on my right ski, for example. This meant that, when I stood in a neutral position, my ski was actually tipped on its outside edge. Think about the implications for edging the inside edge: must more tipping required! After the alignment, it was like skiing on rails! Unbelievable! 
Make sense?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ssh,is the alignment you are talking about what I have always refered to as "cant" or cant angle?This is the adjustment required to take account of your stance so that when stood in a normal,upright position your skis sit flat.It is to adjust for the variations in leg to boot/ski angle between different people.If so,we are on the same wavelength.And yes,its just as difficult to find someone to do it here!
Certainly,when I've mentioned it to a few skiers I know,they have no idea what I'm talking about(until I explain)then the odd eyebrow has been raised
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowskisnow, not really. There are two aspects to boot alignment: aligning your foot to the bootboard of the boot and then aligning your leg to the cuff. IMHO, the former is more important but almost never practiced. Some boot fitters help this when they build custom footbeds, but most only do so by serendipity.
Here was the amazing thing for me: stood in the boot shells without a footbed or liner. Flexed forward and saw my knee track significantly towards the inside. Placed new custom footbeds into boot with the liner. Saw my knees track virtually straight forward!  Simply by adding a well-made footbed!
This process changed how my legs aligned with the cuffs (obviously). Jeff didn't even need to do anything with the cuffs. A little grinding on the inside heel area and he was done.
Does that help at all?
I suspect that I'll do more to my boots later this season (after I take my on-snow exams) that will change the balance, too. I'll let you know about that more after this weekend.
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Cedric, yeah, I think MK is about 12-15deg.
snowskisnow, I've done a bit of work on boot adjustments, and had some help from various people on Epic. If you want, I could take a look at them for you. Not promising miracles, but I may be able to help with the basics.
(If you're near Milton Keynes, or Burton-On-Trent, PM me, and we can arrange to meet)
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You know it makes sense.
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ssh,
| Quote: |
If, instead, we use gravity as our friend to slow us (by turning up hill, for instance), then we find that it is far more effortless and that we can spend a lot more time carving than we ever thought.
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That's interesting, and to draw a parallel - when grass skiing, as skidding is impossible, doing just as you describe is in fact the ONLY way to slow down or stop!
This is one of the positive things grass skiing brings to snow technique. Carving the right line is vital. In a slalom course, for example, it is virtually impossible to correct your line if you miscalculate. One error, and you're out of the race. You really do have to learn to look ahead, see your trajectory for several turns to come (and for racers, to concentrate far more carefully during the course inspection!)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PG, I agree! What a wonderful illustration of how perfectly carved skiing requires the use of line to manage speed. Obviously, from a racing perspective, any skidding at all is inefficient and increases one's time. Given that, by definition, then, any skidding is actually more difficult (in terms of muscle energy expended) than a pure carve (there are also some physiological phenomena that contribute to the muscle effort required that we can get into at some point, if there's interest).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Is it the extra 'muscle twitch' energy expenditure from losing the smoothness of the line, with the jerky movement involved? And I suppose the greater resistance and consequent pressure on the legs....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PG, yes, it's both. Think about it: if you're just holding a carve, what do your muscles have to do (balance on the edge) vs. what they have to do on a braking skid (balance against the edge, tip to engage friction and hold against that torque, handle the jitter, etc.).
The other part of the efficiency is to move from concentric contraction to eccentric contraction. But, that's a topic for a different thread at another time!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ssh wrote: |
snowskisnow, not really. There are two aspects to boot alignment: aligning your foot to the bootboard of the boot and then aligning your leg to the cuff. IMHO, the former is more important but almost never practiced. Some boot fitters help this when they build custom footbeds, but most only do so by serendipity.
Here was the amazing thing for me: stood in the boot shells without a footbed or liner. Flexed forward and saw my knee track significantly towards the inside. Placed new custom footbeds into boot with the liner. Saw my knees track virtually straight forward! Simply by adding a well-made footbed!
This process changed how my legs aligned with the cuffs (obviously). Jeff didn't even need to do anything with the cuffs. A little grinding on the inside heel area and he was done. |
My wife had a real problem with alignment and went to see the podiatrist at S & R in Chertsey. After a 1 hour consultation and boot re-fit, the result has been almost unbelievable.
From skiing against the odds because of one leg being slightly longer than the other, and "twisted kneecaps", she now skis so much more comfortably and in a much more relaxed style. Couldn't recommend the service highly enough. At £150, it's not cheap, but weighed against the cost of the holidays and the increased enjoyment and comfort, it is in fact excellent value for money.
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