 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Lots of folks on snowheads mention rear entry boots - they were probably what we had in Lenzerheide 10+ years ago, but I can't recall how they worked - what is different in the design of them and why are they nowadays laughable? (they attached to the ski in a similar way to todays boots didn't they IIRC), i.e. how is the modern entry system better?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Megamum, it's easier these days to get the insertion correct. In the old days girls used to complain about rear entry...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
plus a modern womens ski boot such as the Head Dream Thang 10 offers a 4 way tongue action.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
I read somewhere that rear entry is making a comeback......
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I used to ski with a girl who preferred rear entry 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Ha, Ha very droll - you know me - I did mean it as a SERIOUS question!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I remember rear entry boots! The back of them opened downwards from the hinge and you pushed it shut against your calf and locked it with the top buckles. I only had them as hire boots once when I was a total beginner, and they weren't easy to get on! I guess designs just change and improve..
Ignore all the double entendres 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I have been looking for a picture, but they seem to be a bit obscure now, and I started in them 11 years ago.
http://www.applerise.com/graphics/00000001/Dalbello%20SX1.5-BLK.jpg
If you look at the picture, you will see that there are no clips or buckles on the front. The boot is hinged at the bottom and you kind of clamp the back to the front. This was achieved with a sort of adjustable knob that hinged a bit like old-fashioned (and I mean 1950s!) lemonade bottles. They were very hit and miss as far as fit was concerned, though I would guess that expert people could get them to fit very well. They attached to the ski in exactly the same way as today's boots.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Chris Bish, That's very interesting - they look identical to the childrens boots that my pair have been given the last two years. I must admit I'd assumed the difference in the closure was just to the boots being so small that the conventional system didn't work - I hadn't identifed them as these 'rear entry' boots. I must admit I find them dead easy to put on the children and the single buckle always seems so quick and easy both for me to do for them and they make a passable effort to get it started themselves. There is of course far more adjustment on my own front entry boots though - though with them I'm forever fiddling with the buckles trying to get them comfy - I haven't yet worked out which buckles need which clips by memory.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Yes. Your children's boots will be rear-entry. I guess they would be much easier for tender young feet to struggle into. The four-point buckle can be cranked up much tighter. It was certainly a revelation to me to get my first pair of Nordica "proper" boots.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Being an old git, I remember the rear entry Salomon boots, in fact I had two pairs. SX70 and SX91e's. Late 80's early 90's. If I remember correctly, 2 buckles on the SX70s and an additional front adjustment on the SX91e's. Very comfortable, easy to get on and off and the simple release mechanism made them very comfortable to walk in.
One thing though... early last year I was at Castlefield Xscape. I saw a guy wearing a old pair of Salomon 70's. About 10ms into a run he seemed to fall over. What had actually happened was that both his boots had shattered. Shards of plastic all over the place and he was left spinning down the slopes on his boot liners!  Bearing in mind the boots must have been 20 years old and they must have done some mileage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Megamum, On the subject of buckles on 4 point boots. I doubt if I have ever done them up the same way twice! Different thicknesses of ski sock and even how things feel on the day alter things. I always find myself tightening up my boots during the day as the lining compresses too. And I grade my ski socks and use the thinner ones at the beginning of the week and the thickest at the end. Salomon x2 Nordica x2 and X-socks x2 is the usual order, with a pair of K2 for emergencies, or that crafty extra day if you get in resort early and the sun is out or there is a free lift or something.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Chris Bish wrote: |
Yes. Your children's boots will be rear-entry. I guess they would be much easier for tender young feet to struggle into. The four-point buckle can be cranked up much tighter. It was certainly a revelation to me to get my first pair of Nordica "proper" boots.
|
only if the hire kit for kids is old. Ours have been in front-entry from age 3 onwards, starting 8 years ago.
Another reason to move on from resort X ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
BMF_Skier, I think I can out-git you here, having started with Hanson boots in the seventies: see
http://www.uvm.edu/skivt-l/vault/Equipment_Dustbin/hanson_73b.jpg
Once you got them to fit (which involved expensive Swiss technicians grinding bits off the wetsuit material liner and adjusting the volume of the "flopaks" (I think they were called, some sort of ultraviscous gel)) they were very warm and comfortable, and light too. An added feature was that to get your foot in you had to spray the inside with a special silicone compound, which I suspect was just Pledge.
They got you noticed all right, but not perhaps for the right reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| BMF_Skier wrote: |
| Being an old git, I remember the rear entry Salomon boots....... |
Ah, such memories. What about leather boots and cable bindings then?
I recall having to ski with my boots open on a training course many years ago and wondering why I alone of the group kept falling backwards. After much blaming of a failure to centre my weight, I realised that I was the only one with rear-entry boots. The rest were still enjoying a fair degree of support from their boots: mine were of course wide open at the back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Are Xscape's hire boots rear or are they mid-entry? The backs certainly hinge away, and they have 3 not 4 clips and they are a different mechanism witha loop that attaches in one of 2 or 3 places at the back to give a 2nd level of adjustment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
CEM, I was going to place an ad for Titicaca skis along the lines of "Get yer Titi's out" but my wife told me to grow up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
The guy to ask is David Goldsmith.
(seriously!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
kiwi1, that would be much better on a t shirt than in some trade ad 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We have Salomon to thank for years of agony and poor performance. Sure, they didn't invent RE, but they hijacked it and the result was their usual triumph of marketing over the laws of physics. I first saw an SX90 on a ski instructor in France in or around 1980. We all swooned and felt inadequate in our 5 clip Koflachs and Dachsteins. Next thing you know Marc Giradelli is winning World Cup races on them and we all concluded that this must be the nirvana of performance and convenience we were all craving. Fact is, there was nothing wrong with our existing boots but the Salomon marketing machine persuaded us to switch for fear of not being cool. BASI courses were a nightmare... nobody could demonstrate any ankle flex, hold an edge or absorb monster moguls. Salomon woke up over a decade later, bought San Georgio and started making front entry 4 clip boots like they should have done from the start. I only tolerated a few runs in the things before going back to my unfashionable koflach 911s. Some of you might remember how disasterous it was for the Bell bros when they switched from Lange to Salomon SX91Es... fancy attacking the Hahnemkann with red wellies anybody?
They key difference isn't the method of entry. With a classic 4 clip boot the shell and liner act as one. With RE you are reliant on a system of cables etc to pull just the liner in around the foot... hence the welly boot feel. I think there is still an argument for them... for short skis, low speeds, gentle runs they offer slipper-like comfort, ease of use and that's why some people still use them to this day. Lady Di swore by her Nordica Tridents (air filled) cos she was just such a skier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CEM, when you say "20% off running shoes" does that mean you ask for a size 10 and get a size 8?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| CEM, when you say "20% off running shoes" does that mean you ask for a size 10 and get a size 8? |
No, it means you don't get laces or insoles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Dypcdiver, I had a pair of them too... Scott Superhot in black & white. Very simple system, very springy but about as comfortable as reverse hedgehog underpants.
David Goldsmith IS the man to ask about Hanson. And let's never forget the Heiereling Wind-up (sp).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I had rear entry boots many moons ago, but I was told by some BASI instructors to get front entry boots and it would help my skiing, which it did and they were right.
Since then I thought that rear entry boots weren't made anymore until skiing in Nendaz last year where my son was given a pair. I insisted that we wanted front entry, but they did not have any left in the shop.
We thought that maybe there has been some improvement since my days with RE, but I could see straight away the my son was not skiing as well, so when we got back to the shop I insisted that we got FE boots or I would go elsewhere. They eventually found a pair in the right size and the next day his skiing was back to normal. Won't make that mistake again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I disagree with most of what Swiller has written above.
The Salomon SX91 was the finest piece of ski boot design ever conceived. People bought it and its derivatives because it worked brilliantly. It was sold by word of mouth and the personal experiences of boot fitters in ski shops.
Swiller was working for the distributor of a competing Austrian boot manufacturer at the time, as I recall. I was in a relatively neutral position, enjoying the fun of visiting lots of ski trade fairs and not needing to be loyal to anyone.
If the ski industry was less full of "me too" attitudes, rear-entry would have returned with a vengeance years ago.
The Salomon rear-entry range was easy to put on, easy to walk in, the clips memorised the fit from one day to the next, and the flex control was the best ever. And the boots were comfortable all day. They didn't break, as CEM has implied. They were extremely well made. I used a pair of SX91s for years, and nothing broke.
As for ski control, they weren't the racer's choice. But Charlie don't race. (that's not a reference to Vietnamese skiers, by the way)
Loads of instructors used rear-entry, without complaint.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
By the way, the Salomon SX91 appeared in 1984. The SX90, which was around for about 5 years before it, wasn't a very nice boot.
But here we are, 24 years later, and what have we got? Boots that were essentially designed in the early years of plastic - 1969 to 1979.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
The first pair of non hire ski boots that I had I got second hand from my brother in law who had bought them in Austria. I can't remember the make but they were German or Austrian I think and had internal air bladders and a little valve in the back. You put your foot in, did up the buckles and then used a little pocket sized air pump on the valve to pump up the bladders, giving a tight fit around the ankle with no pain. They were probably late 70s, early 80s vintage.
Do any of the snowhead boot techies remember more about these? They were too big for me anyway and were soon replaced by some sexy black Nordica rear entry boots which I only threw away three years ago!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Trenmold, sounds like a Lowa.
David Goldsmith, the 91 was indeed way better than the 90. Bootfitters did like the 91, 92 etc because it was all about grinding the inner as opposed to more time consuming stretching - very quick & easy (and probably toxic!) but all that meant was more sloppyness between shell and inner. From a retail point of view they were a boon as the demand was bottomless and speed of getting the customer's dosh off them mesmorising. But, better solutions came along (ie 4 clip FE boots again) and here we are today in better control. We'll have to agree to disagree about performance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I had some SX90s for quite a few years, like carpet slippers they were 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I had a pair of grey SX90s back in the day. I was a teenager at the time and found them extremely comfortable, but a bit soft in the flex. I thought they were a decent all-day recreational boot. I used them for a few seasons and then replaced them with a pair of conventional 4 clip Nordica 980s, which were extremely stiff and uncomfortable. Good for racing though.
Modern boots are lightyears better than anything from the 80s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I notice that easyJet use an orange rear entry boot on their ads... is this their ad agency having a bit of a laugh... referring to the metaphorical rear ending you can sometimes get from that particular airline both financially and personally... or maybe the rear ending you get in the scrum for seats... or is it a reference to the convenience, speed and comfort... or what?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
The Salomon rear-entry range was easy to put on, easy to walk in, the clips memorised the fit from one day to the next, and the flex control was the best ever. And the boots were comfortable all day. They didn't break, as CEM has implied. They were extremely well made. I used a pair of SX91s for years, and nothing broke.
|
not sure that i mentioned any make or model that broke, but if i was to be picky, i have had to replace numerous bits on nordicas, salomons, and raichle rear entry boots......the sx91 was one of the better ones for bits not breaking
mind you if they were available now there is a definate market for certain foot types
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It'd be interesting to know the facts, but my impression was that the R&D work that went into the Salomon SX designs (I think 5 years for the SX90, and then several more years for the SX91) was that it was about the most intense and rigorous research work ever undertaken into a line of ski hardware. So that probably explains the durability.
The patents were hugely valuable (the market share they captured was phenomenal) but I imagine they've all expired now ... so I wonder if someone will dust them down?
Salomon killed off the concept quite decisively once they'd decided to make 'me too' 4-clip boots - I remember that they retained rear-entry in some mid-range boots - but was it capable of further refinement?
The ergonomics of the boots really were outstanding. I finally switched to Tecnica TNTs when the tide ran out for rear-entry. They were beautifully made with excellent liners, but not a patch on the Salomons in terms of ease of use, walking, flex control etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| RachelQ wrote: |
I had some SX90s for quite a few years, like carpet slippers they were |
Edit: They were SX80s not 90s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I had some Hanson Stiletto Boots in 1979, followed by some Scott's, followed by some Orange Salomon SX90's.
The Hansons were really comfortable, probably because thet were basically wellies.
The Scott's were incredibly light and you took your life in your hands putting them on, as you had to prise the rear cuff apart, so that it hinged around your ankle bone, if you let go of the rear cuff, it spung shut like a bear trap, with the buckle digging right into your ankle bone.
The SX90's were so bloody stiff, I could hardly flex them, they had strips of steel rivetted up each side as well. Still got them in the Loft somewhere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
The difference in skiing time is about five minutes every day with me invariably emerging from the boot room in a bad mood, while my wife, who refuses to give up her ancient rear entry Salomons, starts the day with a smile and can still ski circles round almost every ski instructor in Austria 
