Piste Etiquette - Mountain Safety

A snowHead

Anecdotally, it has seemed for a while that snowBoarders are more prone to serious accident than skiers but I spoke to someone 'in insurance' recently who confirmed that claims from and in regard to boarders far outstrip those by skiers.
As I think I've mentioned before, my opinion is that a contributing factor to growing accident rates, particularly amongst snowBoarders, is the increasing tendency to just 'do it' with mates rather than go through the traditional route of Ski School for a few years. The less technical nature of snowBoarding and to a lesser degree of carving skis makes it a little easier to excuse oneself out of the traditional route which once gave an instructor opportunity to in-grain an attitude of concern, consideration, respect and healthy wariness of the environment while he taught you how to manipulate your planks. 'Yer mate', on the other hand, might just about get as far as telling you which colour piste is the hardest before zooming off, leaving you to discover the rest for yourself; sometimes people discover it too late Sad

Some people are even going roaming off piste with less than 2 weeks experience on the mountain. Traditionally, by the time you had the technical ability to go there, you would have had many weeks of instruction during which the instructor would have casually, conversationally shared all sorts of little 'gems of knowledge' about how to behave out there.

Overall, I think a larger proportion of people simply have not had the important stuff presented to them. Much of it seems really obvious when you know it, it's just that until someone points it out, you might just not think of it.
e.g. Coming to a halt at the edge of the piste. Giving the rider downhill the right of way. etc.

I've often wondered how we might do something to help address that through snowHeads.
And now, I have a cunning plan but the first thing we need to do is make a quiz

The idea is not to make it some kind of GCSE in mountain craft but simply to raise the bar of awareness regarding how one should behave responsibly on the mountain. There will be no limit to the number of times a person can try it. They can effectively go and seek or even ask for the answers on the forum or via Google if they choose. But by then they'll have encountered those key facts so job done!
It should be aimed at the general skiing public so we're not talking 'specialist' stuff; for example, I'd start with the basic FIS rules of the piste. But there should be some reference to the risks inherent in off-piste skiing too.

Ideally, I'd like to validate it automatically so:
I think the format will be multiple choice with 4 or 5 possible answers per question.
e.g Q) On the Avalanche Risk Scale, at what level do the most deaths occur? A) 1,2,3,4 or 5 (correct=3)

Or, exact answers.
e.g. Q) Name the 2 items of kit that should always accompany an avalanche transceiver A) correct= "Shovel" and "Probe"
In this case we might check for 'Shovel' and perhaps even 'spade' as an alternative, but if someone typed 'digging thing' it would come up wrong unless we pre-allowed for it, which we wouldn't because that would be silly.

I'm looking for suggestions for questions, ideally fairly sensible questions if U can please...

If we do it good, there will be a prize Wink

A snowHead

admin, an excellent idea. I totally agree with your perception and while I'm not exactly pleased to hear about any injuries, I'm interested that there is some sort of support for the inference.

thinking hat on....

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

So would this be done via some web code or good ol fashioned excel type quiz? I love the idea btw.

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Excellent idea, but are the reckless "have a go" brigade members here? Are they the kind who would do such a quiz - how will you sell it so that it attracts their interest?

Just thought - ought there to be a campaign to change the insurance situation, so that cover for boarding, which you imply is more likely to lead to a claim, is dearer rather than all "winter sports" lumped together?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

is the higher rate of boarders injured also at least in part due to more young people taking boarding up as opposed to skiing?as driving stats show its young, usually males, who are the most reckless etc. not that it changes much of whats said above other than as a resposable older boarder i dont want to pay higher insurance...

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

NewSkier, the higher number of incidents of boarding injuries is correct but injury is likely to be strained wrists, broken arms etc., but the more serious injuries are had by skiiers and bladers such as snapped tendons and ligaments, broken legs etc. requiring more expensive treatment, therefore boarding insurance is likely to be cheaper, so yes please, lets do that rolling eyes

admin, I hate these anecdotal type threads that are based upon absolute tosh wink

After all it is free

Boarders v's skiers aside, has no-one any suggestions for questions?

This sounds like an excellent initiative. However, I'm inclined to NewSkier's view.

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admin, I think this is a great idea personally. As a new boarder I am always after more information from people who have the experience behind them and are willing to pass it on! Maybe this wouldn't get to some people who are disinclined to 'waste time' with listening to things from those who are experienced but I certainly would and I daresay there are many others who would too. Great idea Very Happy

snow reports

How about a question on what combination of snow/weather conditions mean that avalanches are more likely to happen?

Ok Here's a couple of suggestions to start off: Little Angel

When pausing for a rest partway down a piste where is the best place to stop?

a) Sat down in the middle of the piste just below a blind hump
b) stood in a huddle with your mates in the centre of the piste
c) spread out in a line across the top of a steep section
d) at the entry to a narrow cat track
e) at the side of the piste preferably at a wide point.

When learning to ski for the first time what is the best way to control speed?

a) Use a snow plough stance and vary the angle and pressure of your skis
b) turn your skis across across the slope
c) point your skis down the hill and go for it, bailing out if it gets too fast
d) take up boarding it's easier

When exiting a lift what is the best procedure?

a) stop immediately off the lift and do up your bindings before proceeding
b) stop immediately off the lift and stand chatting to your mates while waiting for the rest of your party
c) stop immediately off the lift and fanny about with your boots/goggles/gloves/make-up before setting off
d) move away from the lift before doing any of the above

If taking your mates out on their first trip, as an experienced skier/boarder what runs should you take them down?

a) Stick to the nursery greens until they can at least turn and stop under control
b) Don't waste time on the nursery slopes get them going on the blues they'll progress more quickly
c) get straight onto those reds, the blues and greens are for cissys
d) Only black runs will expose them to the challenges they need to become as good as you

Hope these help Little Angel

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

AxsMan, shouldn't there be an option for all of the above

A snowHead

A snowHead

In Switzerland aren't there more avalanche fatalities at 2 due to the scale being slightly different?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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I think its a great idea - I shall do it when it is set up - loads I don't know I'm sure!! snowHead

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

admin, not sure I'd be able to dream up many questions, and I'll more than likely get the answers wrong, but I think it's an excellent idea.

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You are traversing a piste in light/moderate "traffic" with another skier/boarder also traversing in the same direction, but at a sharper angle of descent and higher up the slope from you making a collision a real possibility.

a) do you turn to give way to the faster approaching skier/boarder
b) do you continue in the hope that the collsion will not occur
c) do you continue on the basis that the uphill skier has the responsibility to "miss" you
d) do you stop and let the possible forseen incident recede

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Great idea, will it be on snowHeads or is this something that's going to be used elsewhere admin? After all, this place is a hideout for enthusiasts who are already well motivated or well informed....

I've lost count of the number of seemingly obvious tips I've been given, not just about being safe but other little tricks too (those sharing a ride down with me from the glacier at the PSB will testify to quite how obvious..!) I imagine I'd need a few goes to hit the pass mark... Laughing

After all it is free

Mark Hunter, is the other person above or below you?

eng_ch, yes perhaps ambiguous - the other person would be above. Will amend.

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Mark Hunter, how is it ambiguous? If the other is at a sharper angle of descent and below you there's no chance of a collision is there? Nicely framed question though!

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

David Murdoch, it might be ambiguous to a "novice" I suppose.

snow reports

Mark Hunter, How about (e) point your ski sticks at them, works for me Evil or Very Mad

You know it makes sense.

jbob, presuposing that "you" are infact a skier not a boarder Evil or Very Mad

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Two pistes merge for 100m before separating, a green into a blue. Traffic is moderate and clearly moving faster on the blue section. You are travelling along the green just prior to joining the merged area. Do you

a) stop at the side of the piste to get your bearings
b) slow down and ski/board cautiously onto the the new piste
c) get up to the speed on the faster piste before entering it
d) assess the uphill status for approaching skiers/boarders before entering merged pistes

A snowHead

Source Swiss federal institute for snow- and avalanche research Davos, SLF http://wa.slf.ch/index.php?id=5333

Swiss Avalanche Fatalities, 2005/2006
(October 1, 2005 - September 30, 2006)
Number of fatalities 2005/2006: 24 people
(11 out-of-bound skiers, 5 out-of-bound snowboarders, 5 backcountry skiers, 0 backcountry snowboarder, 3 snowshoers, 0 icefall climbers,
0 mountaineers, 0 other)

Cat 1 none
cat 2 6
cat 3 17
cat 4 1
cat 5 none

Swiss Avalanche Fatalities, 2006/2007
(October 1, 2006 - September 30, 2007)
Number of fatalities 2006/2007: 15 (plus 6 climbers CAUGHT BY AN AVALANCHE AT 4000M while ascending) people (as of 30.9.2007)

(7 out-of-bound skiers, 0 out-of-bound snowboarders, 7 backcountry skiers, 0 backcountry snowboarder, 0 snowshoers, 0 icefall climbers,

6 mountaineers, 1 other)

Cat 1 none
cat 2 3
cat 3 12
cat 4 NONE
cat 5 none

If your are interested in avalanches there is some very interesting stuff here.

A snowHead

jbob, I'm confused again, now. What, in Europe, is the difference between out-of-bounds and back country?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Hurtle, I dont know the official SLF definition but would assume out of bounds is lift served terrain, and backcountry where participants have ascended at least partly under their own steam.

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jbob, oh, OK, that makes sense. Thanks.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You are skiing down a cat-track (perhaps some explanation of what "cat-track" means?) and a slow skier is ahead of you skiing staedily from one side of the piste to the other.
Should you:
1). Speed up, shout a warning and try to pass the skier as quickly as possible by skiing straight down the middle of the piste
2). Try and pass them on the downhill side of the piste
3). Try and pass them on the uphill side of the piste
4). Slow down to the slower skiers pace and follow them until the piste widens
5). Slow down to the slower skiers pace, click your poles together to make them aware of your presence and pass when and if it becomes safe to do so.

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Nick L, yeah, not sure I know what you mean by a cat-track. Also, the nature of the warning could be clarified? Without begging your question, if I ever do consider it's right to warn someone verbally that I'm about to pass them, I try and say which side of them I'm going to go.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Kramer, sounds like a typically German approach. They drive the same way on the autobahns as well - shooting right up behind you, strafing the back of the car with headlammp flashes and expecting you to get out of the way regardless of what you are overtaking at the time.

BTW - I like the idea of the etiquette quiz, although it may be preaching to the converted for most snowHead

s.

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Come, come, chaps, less of the national stereotyping!

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Piste Etiquette - Mountain Safety

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