 Poster: A snowHead
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| Nealglover wrote: |
1) That is how things progress yes, but I dont believe that there actually IS "someone around riding faster and turning everywhere so easy" Not with any kind of style anyway.
2) By "being around the Ski Industry" I meant being around the mountains, being around people who ski, being a skier, meeting other skiers, seeing everything that comes and goes in the world of skiing.
If you indeed have not been around all of this then that would explain a lot.
3)Which Forums ? I have only seen here and TGR and neither of those threads seemed to give much support to the idea ? |
1) Nealglover, if we weren't 100% sure that this ski can make an average freerider faster and let him turn easier we wouldn't start this campaign at all.
Style? If you see me jumping down snow-covered cliffs you would perceive the style OK. Because it is dynamic, dangerous, etc.
In general, short ski with fins allows any style. Leaning back will be unnecessary on Generation 2008 "Glacier" to be announced in few weeks.
2) Yeah, I meant strictly the ski industry with all the paid testers around.
3) One is a German/Swiss freeskiers.net, then English speaking French forum pistehors.com , finally j2ski.com. But we are starting other 4 to 8 soon.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 11-12-07 15:52; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Tom from Austria, hmmm - one post only in reply on pistehors, and replies from 3 people on J2 ski.
On your newer thread on TGR you may be missing some of the subtlety of the humour if you think a third is posiive. About the most positive thing I can see is "Was I the only one who heard the voices commanding me to kill while watching the video?"
Hoewver both of your threads over there are classics.
You really should try epic and MySnowSports 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Tom from Austria wrote: |
1) Nealglover, if we weren't 100% sure that this ski can make an average freerider faster and let him turn easier we wouldn't start this campaign at all.
Style? If you see me jumping down snow-covered cliffs you would perceive the style OK. Because it is dynamic, dangerous, etc.
In general, short ski with fins allows any style. Leaning back will be unnecessary on Generation 2008 "Glacier" to be announced in few weeks.
2) Yeah, I meant strictly the ski industry with all the paid testers around.
3) One is a German/Swiss freeskiers.net, then English speaking French forum pistehors.com , finally j2ski.com. But we are starting other 4 to 8 soon. |
An inventor being "100% Sure" about his invention is
a) Expected
b) no guarantee of it being any good.
I have seen the video and dont see any Style at all, nothing you dont see under every chair lift (off piste) in Europe. Out of their depth skiers, out of control and skiing with no finesse whatsoever.
As for the freeskiers forum posts, I only had time to translate a couple of pages, but they seemed to be slating the idea worse than anyone ![/i]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Forces produced by rear fins always automatically align both skis in actual driving direction and therefore parallel to each other.
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This is exactly what worries me... imagine for some reason you are skidding sideways.... And contact with the fins by something strong enough it won't be knocked away will twist the rax under the foot. More forcefully i imagine then a more traditional carver exactly because of the designed effectivity of the fins.
| Quote: |
2) Ronald if you ride Rax with ski tips lifted, then there is simply no contact between front part of your ski and the bump.
When rear fins hit the bump, they slow down the movement but never skew the ski.
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What if you don't ride the rax with the tips lifted Then you are using the rax in a way more similar to a carver, with what you describe as a carvers "problem"
Just a thought... you mentioned a version where the fin is always in contact with the snow...
How do you stop on one of those... Fins force the skis in direction of travel... stopping involves having the skis in an angle to the direction of travel (Both plowstop and hockeystop)
(I do see the ski working for what it is designed to do, wether I appreciate of what that is is another question, but i am very much concered about safity of the whole thing)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Nealglover wrote: |
An inventor being "100% Sure" about his invention is
a) Expected
b) no guarantee of it being any good.
As for the freeskiers forum posts, I only had time to translate a couple of pages, but they seemed to be slating the idea worse than anyone ![/i] |
Has anybody said inventors were normal?
Neither am I.
Well, somebody in the German speaking freeskiers.net forum brought
the idea "ski length is proportional to pint length" in the very first hour.
If you feel offended, you should give up any publishing.
So I attacked back by "Yes, but indirect. Big cars are also preferred by men with some sexual dysfunction"
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Your potential customers, however, ARE likely to be normal.
I seem to recall that someone on freeskiers taped a couple of saws and a snowshoe to a twintip in an homage to Rax. Not a wholly positive reception.
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| Ronald wrote: |
1) This is exactly what worries me... imagine for some reason you are skidding sideways.... And contact with the fins by something strong enough it won't be knocked away will twist ...
2) What if you don't ride the rax with the tips lifted Then you are using the rax in a way more similar to a carver, with what you describe as a carvers "problem"
3) Just a thought... you mentioned a version where the fin is always in contact with the snow...
How do you stop on one of those... Fins force the skis in direction of travel... stopping involves having the skis in an angle to the direction of travel (Both plowstop and hockeystop)
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I appreciate the way you are thinking, Ronald. I would have similar doubts prior to trying the 1st prototype in Feb 2006. The reality is what matters.
And the reality is:
1) skidding sideways on Rax ski should be limited to groomed piste or a smooth terrain lacking any surprise. Models "Firn" and "Extreme Firn" doesn't allow it at all as fins reach below the gliding surface.
2) Well, if the ski was not shaped in the factory, you cannot execute carve turns but classic parallel turns with skidding on Rax ski.
Whatever applies: if you are skiing Rax on full gliding surface or on angulated edge, you are encountering the same mechanism of skewing/falls.
But,but,but: Your ski tips are much shorter, such making the moment of torque smaller.
You are right anyway. We should not use carvers with fat tips as a material for Rax ski !!!
They bring the highest risk of skewing.
3) Fins force the skis in direction of travel, provided that you apply no force on boots.
Twisting the feet changes the orientation of skis and then the whole direction.
But you are right: there is no explicit brake on Rax ski. Some models allow gradual braking by weight transfer. Those have very steep (20°) carrier and large rear fins located high above the gliding surface. Here you can really brake by cutting rear fins in firm surface.
Means: the farther back you lean, the stronger you brake. It works.
Mind one thing, Ronald: skis are designed for riding, you can control the speed if you choose your path in terrain properly. In powder you can also control the angle between ski and slope: the higher the ski tips, the more you slow down.
Ronald, this ski is so different, that only your own practice can help to think of its function.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Cunners wrote: |
Your potential customers, however, ARE likely to be normal.
I seem to recall that someone on freeskiers taped a couple of saws and a snowshoe to a twintip in an homage to Rax. Not a wholly positive reception. |
Yeah, it's normal that potential customers are normal and the inventor isn't.
Saw, Cunners, and drilling machine is the stuff the Rax dreams are made of.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Tom from Austria wrote: |
| Nealglover wrote: |
An inventor being "100% Sure" about his invention is
a) Expected
b) no guarantee of it being any good.
As for the freeskiers forum posts, I only had time to translate a couple of pages, but they seemed to be slating the idea worse than anyone ! |
Has anybody said inventors were normal?
Neither am I.
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I dont see what this has to do with my Quote that you included in your post ? ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Ronald wrote: |
1)...There may be others on the mountains being wreckless... Off course I can stop by altering my trajectory up the hill,...
2) you can carve on non-shaped skis on not very hard surface by applying the right form of pressure on the ski, causing it to bend upwards when on Edge. The same way I can force my 24meter radius Stoeckli GS skis into a reasonable tight carved turn. Should also work on a Rax used on the full gliding surface |
1) Ronald, of course, Rax ski is able to stop. It supports more precise manoeuvers than other skis. Precise in the sense of direction and velocity. This is good in trees with distances under one meter but not just there. You can ride through a crowd as carefully as needed.
How is it possible ?
Let me show you an analogy: try the figure skating on a ski-like skid with a flat surface.
2) Yes, it does, if you exclude "Firn" and "Extreme Firn".
Let me specify the procedure to learn the physics of skiing:
Ride a full day. Think of it 6 days.
Then choose one of 15 different prototypes and ride an hour. Take another model, etc
Think of it the next week.
After ? weeks you may design better model than we have ever assembled or thought.
I am not kidding for we should actually research the application of fins on big mountain skis,
just to give an example. There is an idea to combine fins and hydrofoil ! Terrible.
Good for BC, not for Alps.
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No - indeed - in the Alps you need what someone copied onto TGR
"someone on the german freeride board was inspired by this idea and has "invented" the next level
It's wider for better pow performance and faces global warming by adding skatebboard wheels, the saws make it extra stable when skiing steeper than 83°
i thought i'd share."
Sorry about posting this image on two threads but some twit from Austria bumped his dormant old threat and I got confused... 
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You know it makes sense.
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And showing the off-road/piste capability...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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brian
brian
Guest
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stoatsbrother, sick 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Tom from Austria, once again I think you may be missing some linguistic subtleties here... and I think you are now verging on spamming too...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I feel a little sorry for Tom. No one has tried these things and whilst there may be some issues re safety I'd like to hear of an independent test before stoning him to death without trial.
This smacks of what is being discussed re the BZK bit of the forum.
If these really are rubbish it wont rely on us to rubbish them, they'll die a natural death, meanwhile give the guy a break.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Michael B,
Sorry but I don't agree at all.
Tom has put 2 threads on Snowheads and others on 3 forums that I know of. And he says between 4 and 8 others.
If he didn't want the opinions of the members of the Forums, then why would he post (multiple times?) on so many of them.
He had a chance to have DB test the things but he didn't think to check his mobile for messages
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Michael B, maybe a fair point, but - like the posters on TGR. I do not want anyone wearing these anywhere near me or my kids on a hill. I believe they represent a loss of control and an increased risk of serious injury to those hit by them. Tom didn't turn up to his appointment with DB, and is now bumping his other thread unnecessarily. I will treat him with respect the minute I see him understand others views or post on a different subject over here. Until then... 
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Michael B, Why wait till they die a natural death? I think we should put them out their misery before he believes any more that this idea will become a success.
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| Rossfra8 wrote: |
| ...we should put them out their misery before he believes any more that this idea .... |
Do that, Rossfra8 !
Put them out their misery tomorrow Dec 14-16 in Sonnenkopf/Arlberg.
The opportunity is here.
The phoneNo is 0650 5252550
The password is "your misery"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Tom from Austria, are you paying for my day off work and flights to Aus?
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Meh there is no need for the agressiveness... Only ruins the atmosphere (and possibly forums reputation) You will not gain anything from that, and it certainly will not cause Tom to stop trying to market these skis.
I would rather not see these things among others on the mountains either, as they represent a chance for more serious injury to others then a traditional ski. (See Doctor Kramer's post describing why in the old thread)
Any skier can loose control and fall, also on a pair of Rax.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Appreciate your iniciative, Rossfra8.
But we are not the ski industry, there is no money to swim in and to bribe.
The winter has just begun. Be patient, we'll ski together somewhere sometimes.
Ronald, you should understand that I am rather a visionary than a salesman.
The "marketing" is not that important.
The "launching a ski revolution" is what matters.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ronald, as another Doc - I also feel responsibility to point out how dangerous these things seem.
I don't see aggression here, just robust humorous respnoses to some fairly robust promotion from someone who hasn't posted about anything else. Look at the TGR thread if you want to see some aggression!
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You know it makes sense.
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Guess I've joined this discussion pretty late, but I'm fairly confused about how fins beat edges in powder since you don't really need edges to ski powder (pontoons work well!)? Doesn't the turning effort come from the base surface area and ski bendiness (especially in the tips), hence why big powder skis work well? 
Now I'm no expert on this but surely the reason why sitting back makes your legs ache is nothing to do with physics and everything to do with biomechanics (well I suppose gravity counts as physics so ok it does have something to do with physics...)?
Not sure if you ever did a martial art, but a 'fun' thing they get you doing (fun for the teacher at least!) is something called the horse stance where you essentially hold a wide seated position - it's a killer on the legs (hence why you do it). Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the whole idea with skiing was that you kept shoulders, over hips, over feet which meant you used you skeleton rather than thighs to support you?
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 13-12-07 17:56; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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All I want to know is .... can I put Marker Dukes on the Rax !!!
Woo ha ha ...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| plectrum wrote: |
All I want to know is .... can I put Marker Dukes on the Rax !!!
Woo ha ha ... |
Would like to help you. Is Marker Dukes just a touring binding ?
If so, the answer is yes. One of our prototypes has an old Marker touring binding.
But wait for Rax generation 2008 in few weeks. The new arrangement of carrier and binding will be much better for touring.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stuarth wrote: |
1)...since you don't really need edges to ski powder (pontoons work well!)?
2)...sitting back makes your legs ache |
1) Right, wash board does the job, too. But we are offering better direction control and maybe a hydrofoil for those of you riding very fast on powder.
Fins and hydrofoils (=horizontal fins) make the difference.
2) It's true when you are skiing hard terrain and that's why we are shifting the front fins as close to the heels as possible in our new generation 2008.
Oriented towards piste and all hard terrain.
You need not press the ski tails if your fins are straight below your feet.
Published old Rax models may then be limited to soft snow arts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's amazing that you have made 77 posts.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Ronald wrote: |
| ....Any skier can loose control and fall, also on a pair of Rax. |
Yes, but a Rax rider is the last one eating snow.
Am just back from Arlberg. Out of around five contacts body-snow in 3 days all were hip-touches in steep powder. In all cases the ride could go on without substantial speed reduction.
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Tom from Austria, You have still to answer the one over riding question here , on epic, on TGR etc etc....... who if anyone though actually cares?
There are giant improvements being made in skiing on a year by year basis and the global technological breakthroughs over the last 30 yrs have been huge, jus tlook at the evolution of touring bindings.
The main problem with your ski is that it doesnt compete well in many market places, certainly not in popular skiing. There is no way anyone on any thread you have posted on shares your view that these skis could compete in a World Cup event. The second main problem is the marketability of you product and because it seems quite a difficult technique to master from the video I would not rate its chances with beginners or ski amateurs.
i have also a techinical question: part of the reason that there is a rear section to a ski is down to centre of balance point. In you invention by removing the rear part of the ski you move the balance point forward. What effect does this have on skier stability.
Also you have shown the rax with a very competant skier, but what happens with lesser skiers, you seem to forget that part of the benefit of a longer clumpier ski is that whne you lose control the extra surface area in contact with the snow offers up extra time to regain control.
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I may at some point come back to my post above and edit it to make more sense!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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plectrum, makes perfect sense 
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| plectrum wrote: |
...
1) The main problem with your ski is that it doesnt compete well in many market places, certainly not in popular skiing....
2) that these skis could compete in a World Cup event. ...
3) it seems quite a difficult technique to master from the video I would not rate its chances with beginners or ski amateurs.
4)...removing the rear part of the ski you move the balance point forward. What effect does this have on skier stability.
5)... the benefit of a longer clumpier ski is that whne you lose control the extra surface area in contact with the snow offers up extra time to regain control. |
1) You may be right, plectrum but probably you are mistaken in this point. Let's see.
2) Just imagine what happens if an unknown skier starting on no-name product with different parameters achieves excellent time as the last one in field:
Products with exactly these parameters will be banned from World Cup ! We have no illusions.
A steep and dense slalom would be the best candidate for a high-grip ski with fins.
Fact is that a non-professional skier using Rax Generation 2008
can pass any icy slalom and downhill piste of the World Cup.
With shaped carver he wouldn't simply make it.
3) Funny: other critics curse us at skiing without any technique.
True is that the Rax technique is very simple: twist your feet left to turn left,
lean back to slow down, etc. The same applies for any short ski.
4) Diagonal carrier gives the same support as the plain ski tail.
Some models such as "Hard Rax" have even unproportionally long slant carrier.
Others don't because they are designed for lower speed in extremely steep terrain.
5) You have to try it to get the answer. The video doesn't show eating snow. Of course you may think that this has been happening every 10 meters and we just cut it off.
Apparently has the Rax ski the same fate as the first locomotive at Trewithick time.
How can it move at all if there are no muscles visible?
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FAQ
