 Poster: A snowHead
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In another thread NewSkier provided a video in which the instructors spoke about "completing turns". So what does it mean to complete a turn? How is it done? Why is it good? Does it have to be a carved turn? Should it be done all the time? When and why would we not want to complete our turn?
What do you think?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not sure what a formal definition of completing the turn would be, but I always try to use the terrain so that my speed remains fairly constant without having to scrub off speed by throwing the skis sideways and scraping. On anything other than the most gentle slopes this means staying in the turn until I'm past the fall line long enough to go into the next turn without significant acceleration. When I 'complete my turns' I feel like I flow from one to another without significant change of speed or rhythm. It can be any type of turn and the aim should be to match chosen speed and terrain with turn type and how long you stay in the turn before starting the next.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FastMan, Thanks for picking up on this. My problem, when the slope is steep and my nerve is failing, is to 'over-complete' the turn so that I end up skiing uphill, which results, inevitably, in difficulty initiating the next turn. rob@rar, avoiding
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significant change of speed or rhythm
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certainly seems to be a key factor, but loss of nerve sometimes intervenes! I have been wondering whether this loss of nerve is the only thing (!) that has to be conquered, or whether there is an exercise that would also help - one which would pinpoint the crucial moment for the transition, and force one to effect the transition at that moment.
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FastMan I think that it is a nis-nomer. A turn is completed as soon as you're no longer changing direction.
In skiing terms, and in the context used by instructors, it means something else. Usually it is beaten in to us crappy skiiers as a method of speed control; finish your turn, or you'll speed up too much for comfort.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
In skiing terms, and in the context used by instructors, it means something else. Usually it is beaten in to us crappy skiiers as a method of speed control; finish your turn, or you'll speed up too much for comfort. |
In that context it's something I am battling with and which has became a real problem for me, I think from having to use a steeper sloper earlier than I personally was ready for (the top of Xscape). I was told to "finish the turn" as Marc says, to control speed, but for me it simply wouldn't happen, gravity was a stronger force than my efforts to keep turning so I would end up ungraciously sliding in a diagonal snowplough, desperately trying to turn until the speed reduced enough for me to breathe again, almost come to a stop and pluck up the courage to turn the other way. I spent so much time trying in vain to sort this out, that I think I unwittingly ended up reinforcing the bad habit, so when things get too steep (and it doesn't take much for it to be too steep yet!), it happens again. The excessive effort I am applying, without the desired effect, kills the leg muscles - to the extent that after one such run I ended up being unable to stand up off the chair lift 
What I am hoping for in Vallandry is to find long enough gentle slopes so I can repeatedly practise and reinforce good technique within my comfort zone and then try to take that onwards. I have a day before my lessons start, and have been told there are some great gentle slopes both in the "bowl" above Peisey-Vallandry and the La Foret run back down, gently zigzagging through trees for ages. This is why I am avidly questioning you all and studying video clips, trying to analyse what's been going wrong, so that on that 1st day I can, as well as "getting my ski legs", experiment and work on this issue so I am ready to really benefit from the ski school.
If only I could go skiing more often - it is hard NOT to focus so intently on maximising the experience when it's just one short week that seems to take forever to arrive, and which will be over in a flash!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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NewSkier, when are you going to be in Les Arcs? If I'm out there at the same time I'm happy to meet up for a little while on your first day until you get your bearings and find your ski legs.
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Michelle, it still makes me smile 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, I am going out on Sat 16th Feb (yes, half term week  but one of my friends is a teacher). I would LOVE to take up your offer if you are out there then!!
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FastMan, My general advice is that you should try not completing the turn by hitting a tree.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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NewSkier, sorry, I won't be there during that part of February. I try to avoid the school holidays if I can.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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NewSkier, you'll find that the first lifts up from Vallandry (whichever you choose of the two) will take you to an area where you will most certainly "find long enough gentle slopes so I can repeatedly practise and reinforce good technique within my comfort zone and then try to take that onwards"
enjoy it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think to Finish a turn well you need to Start the turn early. Lots of people get barked at to FINISH the turn, so they freeze up and panic, over rotate, twist and skid to FORCE a finish.
Doesnt have to be carved, a snowplough can be finished well.
To finish turns think about making S shapes in the snow instead of Z shapes that have a straight section and a hard turn that is thrown in to check speed build up.
A good turns starts with a smooth transition from the last turn, putting the skis on edge early, transferring the weight downhill to allow pressure to build up early and gradually so that as you get to the bottom of the turn going across the hill you can begin to release ressure under control and transition gently to the next turn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, Mosha Marc, Thanks. Yes it is NewGen I am booked with, for 2 hrs each day, Mon-Fri, I think with Ruth. At first I wasn't sure whether to book their level 2 or 3, but on advice have booked Level 3 which they describe as:
More Info: I have skied a few days (even a week) and understand how to control my speed on a green run and how to move left and right. I will be looking to move into parallel turn in the first few days and end up on blue runs and perhaps a red! In some circumstances I am someone who can parallel but is very nervous and wants to build up my confidence again.
Mosha Marc, I am staying at the end of Vallandry furthest from Peisey - so guess it's going to be the "Vallandry" lift, which I shall ride with much trepidation, hoping I don't fall getting up at the end, as that's what happened on my last chair lift ride last year When I've been up once, and got safely back again I will feel much better - I think experienced guys forget how scary it can be going into unknown territory!
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NewSkier, the method i was taught for getting off lifts is as follows
Put both poles into outside hand holding in middle of pole and facing tips forward..
Place both hands on knees...
When you get to marking cone.... Stand up...
I have had people riding lifts with me and getting freaked and just taken their poles and had them do this... 100% success from previously consistent fallers... It is easier without poles the first time!
The other advice I was given re lifts and falling - if you are fallen then go down and as flat as possible (ie keep head down) so chair does not bonk you!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Had forgotten all about it, but this thread reminded me that during my last block of lessons I was told that I was fine when using two mat widths but when we went down to one I wasn't finishing my turns. Now that I come to think about it, I never did get it right...... something else to work on
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fastman.....what HAVE you started ??
mosha - if you are not changing direction...you are going in a straight line
skimottaret..."A good turns starts with a smooth transition from the last turn, putting the skis on edge early, transferring the weight downhill"..skis on edge early..what if you want to rotate your feet and skis to scrape off the speed as you might choose to do in icy bumps, transferring weight..weight or "pressure" ????..downhill ????...out side ski maybe...??? C'mon lads..pull yourselves together.
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skimottaret, where's that weight v. pressure thread, again? (And that's the only comment I shall make on the issue.) 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret,
"transferring your weight down hill", i could have said transition your centre of mass towards the inner side of the new turn and allow pressure to build up on the outside ski. Is that clearer? "
No, not really - I quite liked the first one though
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How do you get those little white boxes round quotes?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ickabodblue, select the text you want to quote with your mouse then click the quote selected button below the smiley face thingys below the quick reply box
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krunchie63, the CSIA acklowledge the term "weight" (after all, it is a real property) but we tend not to use that word when teaching on the hill as you might think, - eg: the classic line of "put your weight" on that ski is never uttered from my lips......
skimottaret, just to clarify, I hope you don't mean that the CSIA have substituted "pressure" for "weight" because as far as I know, "Pressure Control" is still one of the foundation 5 skiing skills in the manual and they ain't the same thing! 
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight, no they havent substituted and i agree and wouldnt say "put your weight on" that ski, but would say transfer your weight downhill, maybe "move your hips or body" would be better....
krunchie63, sorry didnt mean to be a evil influence to get you to post.... but it does get you thinking doesnt it
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimott...it certainly does !!!!
veeeight...thank you for that clarification...I hoped you might have said that !
We (meaning me and the other gentleman I work with) are planning to start making a coaching video next year and I am now getting a sneaking feeling that the commentary is going to go through many many revisions before it sees the light of day.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm with Mosha Marc on this one. Once you're pointing in the direction you want to be travelling you've completed your turn. Anything else is speed control. Not something I'm going to make a great fuss about, but I think it's highly confusing terminology (just the same as when instructors use the word "balance" when what they mean is "posture", or sometimes even "control" ). Interested in the substantive answers though.
| skimottaret wrote: |
| ...think about making S shapes in the snow instead of Z shapes that have a straight section and a hard turn that is thrown in to check speed build up. |
May be a good thing to think about, but not at all sure that's anything to do with "completing" turns.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN, more of an example of my point that in order to complete the turn properly it helps to start it early.... most intermediates point the skis downhill and dont worry about turning until the skis are in the bottom part of the turn and then you gets Z's instead of nice S's
One tip i heard that i liked is that "to be a good skier you should remember your ABC's" - Always Be Curving
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hello GrahamN...when I mentioned direction I was being slightly less than serious...but during a turn you are continuously changing direction...anyway it's academic...fastman is mischievous to pose those riddles ! I never ask pupils to "complete their turns" anyway - we discuss turns in terms of an imaginary circle
- how big is the circle we want to ski around
- how much of the circumference of circle (the arc) the skier chooses to ski
then if we ski 50% of the circle before starting the next turn, 30% 65 % whatever.....the more of the circle you choose to ski the further across the falline you travel and so the further uphill you will travel before starting the next turn and therefore we can use turn shape as one element of speed control...I find it give the responsibility back to the skier for deciding what shape and size of turn they want to make and they work out for themselves when to to do what. I beyt that didn't make a jot of sense did it ??
I don't follow your comments about posture and balance though - where was that mentioned ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm cunfused.
Is this a "how to ski" or "how skiing works" thread?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight,
I'm in pain.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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GrahamN, get yourself over to Suggestions/Requests and read the thread SZK just started!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mosha Marc, I agree. I've always found the term a bit strange too. I've always considered my turn "completed" when I've turned as much as I've wanted, then ended it. In instructor lingo, it certainly carries meaning beyond the words, though, doesn't it. Clearly, when instructors tell their students to "complete" or "finish" their turns, they want them to keep turning longer before ending them, till their skis are pointing more perpendicular or more to the falline.
krunchie63, I like your percentage of a circle approach. I do something similar. I refer to turns in degrees to the falline at completion. The falline represents 0 degrees. Completing a turn just barely out of the falline would be, say, a 10 degree turn. Completing a turn with the skis pointing perpendicular to the falline (straight across the hill) are 90 degree turns. Once a student understands the concept, its a great way to provide prompts that encourage them to experiment with different turn shapes. "OK, lets make some 30 degree turns (yikes, fast!),,, or,,, OK, lets try some 110 degree turns (finish uphill).
As GrahamN says, completing turns, is much about speed control. Instructors are trying to help students discover a mechanism for keeping speeds at a comfortable level on any slope, without the need to throw the tails and jam the edges, as skimottaret touches on. It's a good tool to acquire, as having it allows students to come to understand the acceleration that occurs as they enter the falline is not something to be dreaded, but instead something to be enjoyed, because they know they can tone the speed gained back down as much as they want by simply completing the turn more after exiting the "yeee-haaa" falline phase of the turn. This knowledge can serve to free a skier of the sense of desperate need to toss the tails at the start of the turn, and get out of the bloody falline as quickly as possible. Instead, they can begin to appreciate the fun associated with the falline portion of a turn.
Should, as the instructors in NewSkier's video suggested, always complete our turns? Course not. As skills grow, we'll naturally begin to build confidence, and will find staying more in the falline (smaller degree turns) can be a very enjoyable way to negotiate the hill. Even in training situations, some new skills and drills are best introduced on flat terrain with low degree turns. How "complete" your turns are really depend on what you're trying to achieve, or what tickles your fancy at the time.
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For some reason I keep reading this thread as contemplating the turn.
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FAQ
He's a great person to ski with, and I would never have got down my first black in Les Arcs at the 1st EoSB in 2005, if he hadn't been so patient 
)
