Kick yourself off the "intermediate plateau"?

A snowHead

I never started a thread in BZK. Hope I won't start a fire...

The threads about how much lesson are needed or too much is too much got me thinking, in a slightly different direction.

Having done much of my learning on the other side of the pond, I have a somewhat different impression when it comes to lessons. Basically, most Americans don't do too much lessons past the red piste level (blue in N.A.). Majority of them never (take lessons) at all after that point! And I can see the same impression being expressed by skier across the pond: many don't quite see the point of taking more lesson beyond being able to get down red comfortably (and the occasional black when condition is favorable) either.

Looking back to my own experience, I can see the following as one of the big reason:

Going from red to black requires a much finer balance and control. It isn't something obvious to all. Nor does it comes after one magical lesson!

That being the goal of moving beyond red, a lot of the intermediate lessons are consist of dull drills and hard to grasp movements. Just because a student in the class can "do" the move doesn't always means they understand the real "point" of doing them. But until they do "get the point" of such finer balance and control, they really haven't progressed beyond what they already can, which is get down the red in reasonable speed.

Juniors have one advantage forced upon them: they're often forced to stay in skiing classes and do those dull drills whether they like it or not! Wink

(Juniors in Alpine country are also often involved in racing, which requires fine-tuning every single movement...)

Adults who make their own decision often choose not to bother. And if the student doesn't come back for more of those hull lessons, that's the end of their learning progresss. Sad

One difference over the pond in N. America is, off-piste is within easy access, for free. And that made the biggest difference FOR ME. Basically, in N. A., intermediates WILL GO OFF-PISTE!

And off-piste tend to expose all the technical flaws much quicker than on smooth piste. What works only marginally on-piste often doesn't work at all off-piste. While solid balance and control will transfer seemlessly off-piste. Suddenly, those dull drills start to make perfect sense! Laughing

And for me, that was what drove me back to ski school, to work on those dull drills to fine tune the technique which was "deconstructed" (fallen apart) while off-piste. Embarassed

Those who had progressed beyond, what tempted you out of your own "intermediate plateau"?

A snowHead

Do we ever get off it?

Does it exist Twisted Evil

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

abc, EXACTLY why I am going to have a week of tuition in January - to get me off my intermediate plateau and into the powder, I hope. I can make it down most pistes, I'm useless off-piste; and that's what I want to change. But, what with my advanced years and the fact that I don't get to the snow all that often, not sure how far I will succeed....

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Hurtle, Interesting. There are so many of these "clinics" being offered--I have sometimes thought of going on one--as I am similar to you-- useless off piste, but ok on most pistes. Are you going on a package and where? (pm me if you like.)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Off-piste is over-rated, don't bother

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abc, I'm not a good example as I did a tiny little bit of racing as a kit. Never to a high level but enough to have the basics of decent technique (and the underlying engineering) drilled into me. But those of my acquaintances who have moved "off the plateau" - it was a combination of being pushed into powder and skiing with skiers who were better than they were (and asking from informal advice from friends who were instructors). Oh, and lots of hours on snow...

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Mosha Marc, yeah well I'm old so I suppose I could regress soon, but that is usually a lack of body function rather than technical skill... Razz

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abc, I did pretty much what you describe, and I think that's pretty common over here too - much to easiski's chagrin. The first couple of weeks I was in half day lessons every day. The first week was a bit rubbish, but the second (6 years later) was magic. I was actually in a group too advanced for me (I was by far the least experienced of those that had skied before in our group, but way ahead of the two who'd never skied before), but that meant I got information on how to do all sorts of fairly high-level turns (this was just at the start of the carver revolution, with a fairly old-school, but highly technical instructor) - and we spent the end of the week either on ungroomed blacks or off-piste in powder, moguls etc.. So I knew what I was trying to do, and have a pretty good memory so it stayed with me - but had nothing like the muscle coordination to actually put into practice what I knew I had to do. The next few years/weeks I just spent skiing either with friends or by myself working through those exercises and turns we'd been given in that second week, developing the coordination. I think I had one 2 hour lesson (2-to-1) in about the 4th week, which did a reasonable amount of good, but basically the instructor confirmed what I knew - I was trying to do the right things, but my body wasn't ready for it.

Eventually it came, but slowly. Whether instruction would have helped in that phase or not I don't know. As I have always been primarily interested in off-piste skiing, the one thing I knew I wouldn't be doing was spending the whole week on easy slopes. As a result I developed the ability to get down pretty much anything, provided the snow was pretty benign (spring snow, ski pisted, powder over solid bottom etc) but with not a lot of style. And I was screwed if the snow was much out of the ordinary (i.e. breakable crust, porridge etc, bottomless powder) - as we'd encountered none of this in those 2nd week lessons and I had no idea how to ski it (and had no idea I had no idea....this was definitely one of Runsfelds "unknown unknowns").

The thing that kicked me off the "intermediate plateau" was a) discovering that what I considered off-piste was just touching the surface of where you actually could ski and b) realising that at the rate I was going I wouldn't get to the technical level I wanted to be before I started drawing my pension. Since then I first upped to 2-3 weeks a year, which made a huge difference to the rate of progress, just through increased mileage - and for the last couple of years have been getting 25+ days on snow a year. I started going on adventurous SkiClub holidays which are guided/led which greatly increased the range of terrain I was exposed to and had to learn to cope with. I also got a week of instruction in off-piste through that, and several weeks of back-country guiding/touring with the associated instruction in mountaincraft, and have now had about 4 courses with Snoworks honing it further. And last but by no means least for the last 2.5 years I've been doing weekly race training throughout the year. This in particular has resulted in major improvements my technical abilities - and the important thing here is the frequency of doing it; the muscles never get time to forget what they were doing the previous session. On-piste technique is of course greatly improved, off-piste a reasonable amount too - basically through improved muscle coordination and reactions.

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I'm hoping that I am off this particular plateau (I don't believe that we only encounter one). I've taken loads of lessons on the dry slope, had loads of advice from snowHead

s, updated my gear and practised loads. I've finally got myself out the backseat and got to grips with carving BUT will it transfer to snow - who knows?..... but I can't wait to find out.

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There are different types of plateaus. Some result form a stop/pause in pursuit of learning new skills. Some are temporary pauses during the learning process as new skills consolidate.

FastMan, I count them as steps...

sort of like

............... __
..........__/
......__/
___/

rather than

.......... _______________
......__/
___/

bad ascii drawing - never my forte

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Nice illustrations

A snowHead

little tiger, New Olympic Logo - go copyright it immediately Laughing

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Scarpa,

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The top one, not the bottom. wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

The way to get off the intermediate plateau? Get yourself a decent instructor!
It worked for me!

Now I'm on the advanced plateau. rolling eyes

I've been skiing off-piste since I was snow-ploughing (having been taught to ski in Whistler), but I don't mind all those euro-skiers who prefer to ski on-piste. It just means the off-piste, including fantastic secret gladed runs don't get skied out so quickly. snowHead

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As one of the kids referred to in the first post, I'm not in a position to say what pushed my off the plateau. I don't think I ever did plateau at an intermediate level TBH. However I see lots of plateau'd skiers, and the thing they all have in common is that they stopped learning too early in their skiing lives. They got as far as skills for blue slopes and then transferred these skills onto red and black slopes which re-inforced their basic skill errors (PC there!).

To my mind there are two main blocks to learning: a) no desire to learn for whatever reason, and b) fear - the biggest block for women certainly.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Just because people are out of lessons, doesn't mean they have stopped learning. That is down to the individual person.

If you ski with good skiers, you can pick up on what they do, nick it, adapt it, just go home and study it.

If you try and push your skiing on, you'll work at it one way or another. Some defining moments come at anytime, and if you spend your life in lessons, then they will all come with that.. sometimes, you'll get it
dueing a particuarly good day and think, 'yep, cracked it'

You'll need a good understanding of a few skills and then you need to put yourself in position to see if they work.

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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Snowy,

Yes, a video helps or someone who is willing to impart advice, but this shouldn't be impossible
if you ski with good skiers who evaluate what they do themselves with a degree of understanding.

You need to know that you are getting your body into such and such a shape..and this can be difficult.
Of course, it is all about feedback and after a while I think you can know when you aren't doing something that you want to do.

Last season I had a bit of a problem ..it kind of re-occurs, and I know when I have fixed it because the turn flows just a bit better. Thinking of this whilst I really have to do something else does pose a probloem or two
sometimes.
I think Graham's point about regular practise is very valid.. and just as important.

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JT, agree with video analysis but your mates may not always see the underlying problem and may point to details and not fundamental flaws...

seeking professional help, at least occasionally, can only help IMO.

You know it makes sense.

skimottaret, key point really. Just being a good skier doesn't necessarily mean you know 'why' skiing works the way it does, which is important in improving your own and others skiing. So, it's still important, if only occassionally, to get some of that pro help just to make sure the right combinations are working.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

For me technique was part of the equation but also important was the confidence that you can only get from technique plus mileage off piste, this is a big problem for the European holiday skier who will always struggle and be lucky if their 1-2 weeks a year occasionally coincides with decent conditions.
The third element which again is a challenge for the holiday skier is fitness/acclimatisation and while good technique helps reduce tiredness, even if you arrive reasonably fit you will only just be getting "ski fit" and acclimatised when its time to go home.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

That's the big difference between N.America and Europe. In NA, "off-piste" is right there. So you don't "do a day of off-piste". You just mix on and off-piste within minutes.

The varied condition off-piste helps to deflate the "intermediate balloon" FAST! If a skier is slightly off balance on-piste, they can easily recover or even muscle their way through. Off-piste and off-balance lead to face plant much quicker. There's less room to "cheat".

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abc, not sure there is such a big difference on and off piste between NA and EU. I would argue that europe is more open with less "trails" cut through trees and that off piste is usually no more than a few feet away

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

abc...the only significant difference I can see between US and euor conditions is that I have spent 4 trips to colorado..all of 2 weeks...and the snow consistency was perfect from the top of the hill to the bottom (of course that was only about 800 mtrs vertical but that's all there was...hey)...and it was like this all day every day for 2 weeks...4 times over 6 years...so it seems quite feasible to me that some US 2 week holiday makers may only experience these wonderful and comfortable conditions...which may explain why i hear so many US skiers in little ol' europe wingeing in the lift queue about the icy conditions when it seemed like crunchy powder to me...I am puzzled as to why you think you cannot ski on and off the piste in europe the same way as in the US....you think we have put huge moats filled with dragons to keep the lowly piste skiers out of danger ??? Toofy Grin

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krunchie63, I guess my point was, in the theme of the thread, that even with the best instruction there is a limit to how well you will ski, particularly in variable conditions if you are only able to ski one or two weeks a year.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

jbob - I'll go with that - it is surprising how many clients expect to be able to ski like a national team member but they wouldn't expect to play tennis like Rafael Nadal if they only got on court for 6 days every year - I was just messing you buddy ! Skullie

After all it is free

abc....??????????? do you mean mis-information...as in what abc/fox etc etc etc excel in ????

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Kick yourself off the "intermediate plateau"?

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