 Poster: A snowHead
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Just got this...
Snow+Rock are pleased to announce the acquisition of Cycle Surgery for an undisclosed sum.
Cycle Surgery is the leading specialist cycling retailer and operates from seven locations in London. It has
experienced rapid growth in recent years and represents a strong strategic fit with the core Snow+Rock business.
Interesting move. Plan appears to be to take the brand national. Must be a good cross-over between skiers & bikers.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Let's hope they won't be selling/fitting cycle shoes 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wonder what CRC make of that move? Crossover between wintersports and bikes is certainly not unique, even if CRC only got as far as snowboarding and forgot about skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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boredsurfin, what, like it is now?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller, just great - does anyone believe that this will improve either the skiing service supplied by S&R or the bike service by Cycle Surgery?
I think Evans would strongly dispute the "the leading specialist cycling retailer " bit btw, and even bikehut (the S&R of bikes?) would too... Leading amongst London Metrosexuals maybe
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stoatsbrother, is there a problem with their ski business? They co-dominate the UK market and sell lots of mid/upper end kit. Whats wrong with that?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I quite like going in to snow and rock..it does sell all the high end stuff (clothes) which is good to look at but it's not to trying to compete with TKMaxx..
As far as the boot fitting goes I imagine there are only a few (2-5) decent ski boot fitters in the UK given the market so Snow and Rock aren't going to have one in each of their 15 or so stores and as a bigger (for ski) retail business I'm sure the pay is crap..you can't blame them..the moneys in the jackets/pants etc..
What I find amazing is the high price of bikes, ski clothing (well the posh stuff) vs the cost of the skis/boots themselves..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller, Maybe the question to ask is whether there is a problem with S&R's non-skiing business. My nearest shop is empty during the summer.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Bode Swiller, They are variable boot fitters at best, have variable customer service and charge a huge mark up compared with German and US sources, which - given their size - I would have expected them to drop . Their website is a mess. They don't seem as generous with discounts as EB. Stock level control seems also iffy. But it is a free market and we get what we deserve, which is I guess why I buy most of my gear in the US and get kids stuff from Decathalon and TK Maxx.
I think they could do better.
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stoatsbrother, I'm reliably informed they sell circa 15,000 pairs of boots per year. A specialist might do 500. There's bound to be a variance in customers' "fit" experience and I doubt the small community of specialist boot fitting retailers have a proportionately better success rate - I hear people moaning about their boots wherever they were fitted and, lets face it, if you've just spent 3 hours having "the works" you'll probably grin and bear it and accept the price of performance. Trouble isn't the boots, the shop or the fitting process, it's the human bit dangling at the end of puny legs that causes the bother. Some argue that there's a good deal of "overfitting" going on - too much diagnosis, attempts at correction etc. Boot manufactuers have designed their recreational boots to be almost instantly comfy and perfect for the one-week-a-year skier who hasn't got the time to break in something a little snug. Over the years I've had it all... foamed, zip'd, shim'd, aligned, you name it but, to date, the best boots I've had came in the post, I slid my footbeds into 'em and went skiing. They were meant to be heat moulded but I didn't even bother with that. I'm sure they have individuals in each shop who know what they're doing. Trick is to seek that person out.
AFAIK S+R will price match.
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You know it makes sense.
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Bode Swiller, I have never heard anyone here complain about fitting at Lockwoods or CEM, but.....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
stoatsbrother, is there a problem with their ski business? They co-dominate the UK market and sell lots of mid/upper end kit. Whats wrong with that?
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I am very well informed that their ski business is strong but to generate all year turnover, They need to diversify.
The only problem with it's ski/snow business is it's seasonality.
Snowsports are not growing and there market share they already have counld only allow for slow growth.
As with many multi regional businesses it's eat or get eaten.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, I have never heard anyone here complain about fitting at Lockwoods or CEM, but..... |
They daren't... its illegal.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, I have never heard anyone here complain about fitting at Lockwoods or CEM, but..... |
I heard a few - including the wife. And I tell them to go back and get them to work on them more - and she did.
And bikes make ski gear look cheap. It's difficult to spend a few grand on a ski equipment (skis, boots, poles) - but that's easy with bikes. My bike lights cost more than my skis!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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RobW, I'm sure they will accept that they don't always get it right and that some feet simply defeat them. Same would be true at S+R and in both cases they offer a guarantee and will keep adjusting (or even replacing) until customer is happy. S+R are more visible than the others and sell way more boots so you are bound to hear more fit issues... that's mathematics.
stoatsbrother is wrong to label them as
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variable boot fitters at best, have variable customer service
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. I think they have set the standard over the last 25 years and, despite economic and weather ups 'n' downs, they still continue to grow. I was at their 25th birthday party the other week and it was most striking that the team that started the business are basically still there, enthusiastic as ever. Their business is on a completely different scale to your average specialist shop. They had 120 staff at the ski show alone for example. No, they wouldn't be where they are if they didnt know exactly what they're doing.
RobW,
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And bikes make ski gear look cheap
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I can see why they are attracted to that market.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Bode Swiller, just my experience and the experience of various people I know - which is actually quite difficult for you to gainsay. I have had some good deals from them, but on another occasion had to threaten legal action to get them to deal with one manifestly faulty item. I have seen others refer to similar customer service problems, and perhaps the issue here is the size and structure of the organisation? When people on snowHeads/SCGB bring up the subject of S&Rs bootfitting and orthotics etc, usually there seem to me to be 50% pleased and 50% disappointed - and that doesn't seem good enough to me.
Yes - sure they are bigger so they will always attract more flack. And if I were them I would make the biggest profit I can make. They are a business after all. I am not misty eyed about small shops. But in other retail sectors, volume brings discounts. This doesn't seem to happen with S&R. And the fact that they are a financially successful business does not necessarily mean they are delivering good customer care. Look at Ryanair...
I would be interested in your views on why don't we have a backcountry.com type operation over here? Organisations like Richer Sounds and Currys have shown you can have differential internet and walk-in pricing?
I can see exactly why they would want to move into the bike sector, but they will find there a greater culture of deep discounting and online purchasing and that they may have rather slimmer margins.
From my point of view - they have lost my family's business - which probably used to average £1000 a year, just because of the price issue. To beat Wiggle and CRC and Evans they will have to up their game.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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50% pleased and 50% disappointed
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the disappointed will always publicise their disappointment 10x more than the pleased... 'tis almost a fact.
I agree, there is room for a down 'n' dirty discounter in the UK. Closest there is to the US examples would be skiwear4less.com. Trouble is supply. The manufacturers, scared of losing their S+R and EB business, either won't supply or supply at a price that makes discounting unrealistic. They have the grey import route pretty much taped as well. So, the likes of S+R don't need to discount too deeply knowing that the current year stock from in-demand brands will sell through.
I'm assuming that the bike stores will continue to be run by their existing management and that the price paid will have been based on the profit generating ability that exists already. I find it far more confusing than the ski market. I mean, Halfords can sell a 21 speed, disc braked, full suspension jobby for say £199 yet, up the road at the "specialist retailer", there's something seemingly very similar for £1999. Fella up the road from me says his bike cost £5k but, frankly, I can't see the difference between his and my £400 thing. It's a maze.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| FenlandSkier wrote: |
Maybe they'll take up saddle fitting  |
Ouch, the mere thought has made my eyes water!
Actually I seem to have started something here with my throway comment about boots:
I have no problem with S+R in general, I like the stores and often pop into our local one (which is just up the road) and has better stock IMHO than the far smaller EB here. I've found the staff in both S+R and EB very pleasant and helpful on every occasion I've bought stuff from them and there have been no quibbles or problems when I've taken faulty stuff back for a refund including some very badly made footbeds which I took back to S+R after seeking advice from a 3rd party.
My only gripe is that S+R claim to have expertise in boot fitting which I think is not the case in general and people have as much as accepted that above:
The following quotes are all from the 06/07 catalogue (couldn't find this years one although it's kicking around somewhere).
"We continue to invest in training our staff to a high level of expertise in boot fitting ... we believe we can provide you with a great fit, regardless of your feet's shape or size"
"Our staff ... have all been trained in order to make sure you get the right boots"
They "will be able to give you the confidence to make an informed choice and get a good fit"
"you can take advantage of our custom boot-fitting expertise"
That's not what I've experienced and not what some anecdotal evidence has suggested to me but leaving that aside these are pretty big claims which I don't think given the obvious variability of the service they offer they should be making.
As for the "Boot Comfort Guarantee":
"If any problems develop before going skiing, we will refit or change the boot at no charge and refund the difference if you chose a cheaper model"
All well and good but surely the point is the problems develop "whilst" you are skiing not *before*, however, they go on to say:
"If after skiing in the boots you you discover fit problems, we will continue to offer a free refitting service"
This is in my experience actually the case as I was given this service, however the fact the staff concerned were totally clueless as to what to do kind of made it a bit pointless - they were all lovely about it though!
"Finally, if despite our refitting efforts your boots prove unsuitable and have been skied in for less than 14 days we will issue you with a credit note less the comfort guarantee charge"
So, you pay for the comfort guarantee in the first place (I forget how much it is - perhaps someone can remind me?) and that's non-refundable by the time you've done enough skiing to know if the boots are okay or not. You maybe try them on dry and/or at a dome then go on a weeks trip and the boots need more fitting, you then go on another weeks trip to find out whether or not the refitting has worked, perhaps having already visited said dome/dry slope for another pre-trip test - if they don't now fit well you're suddenly potentially out of the 14 day period so you've lost your chance of a credit note/refund and you're stuck with the boots and staff who don't in my experience have the expertise to sort the problems out.
I'd suggest however well meaning the staff are, and they're very nice in my experience, S+R as a company are not being entirely straight forward in their claims of having staff with a "high level of expertise in boot fitting" and furthermore the comfort guarantee is pretty worthless (even though you've paid for the privilege of having it in the first place!)
I'm sure there are some people who are happy with the fit (or at least just put up with it because they don't know any better) and perhaps it's just those of us who could be accused of having 'problem' feet who have these issues but I think they ought to be a bit more honest about the level of training and expertise their staff have rather than bandy around phrases like "regardless of your feet's shape or size".
As for the experts (CEM, Lockwoods etc.) I cannot accept that they have as high a percentage of misses with their fitting - I have no figures to prove this either way but from my direct experience, as well as all the anecdotal evidence from speaking to people and reading comments here, I'd say there are a lot more satisfied customers using them. But then surely given their levels of expertise, training and qualification as well as their years of experience that's what you'd expect?
Sorry about the length of this but this is the last point, I still buy from both S+R and EB, I enjoy visiting their stores and like their staff but I'd never buy a pair of boots from either of them again and would never recommend anyone else to do so either.
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As for the experts (CEM, Lockwoods etc.) I cannot accept that they have as high a percentage of misses with their fitting
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nobody has suggested that they do. But, dealing with humans and their putrid, boney feet, means you're not going to get it right all the time.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| From my point of view - they have lost my family's business - which probably used to average £1000 a year, just because of the price issue. To beat Wiggle and CRC and Evans they will have to up their game. |
There's two almost independent markets in the bike sector:
Wiggle, CRC, in particular aim at the enthusiasts who know exactly what they want to buy before they buy it.
Evans, Halfords (Bikehut?), and I guess CycleSurgery, with a high street presence target the 'walk in and buy' market for people that don't know what they want/need, and also serve the 'bike 2 work' discount schemes, even if they do have an interweb store.
Wiggle and Evans both attract a lot of praise and a lot of complaints, a bit like S+R I guess.
So my guess is that S+R/CycleSurgery may compete with Evans and Halfords (High Street first, Mail Order second), but CRC and Wiggle I'd say are pretty safe for now in the mail-order sector (unless they become victims of their own success).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller, it might be possible to draw an conclusion that EB and S&R, or UK importers, effectively fix prices at an artificially high level and prevent competition on price. The list of brands that Backcountry.com will not ship outside the US is intriguing, and I wonder if this is the Manufacturers restricting supply so they can charge importers more, or a condition imposed by the big UK boys purchasing the gear...
Comments?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller,
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| I doubt the small community of specialist boot fitting retailers have a proportionately better success rate. |
We do circa 1000 pairs between 4 fitters and work on between 5-10 pairs returned exchanged each winter. As you say, we don't change our protocol when fitting, it's the human bit and matching fitters with clients that keeps these numbers down.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stoatsbrother, The backcountry.com thing is simple... if you were the exclusive distributor for XYZ Skis in the UK and they were flooding in via a US retailer, you'd object to the US distributor and ask them only to supply that retailer on the basis that the gear is only to be sold in the US. There is also a credit card verification reason why they'll only deliver to a US address paid for with a US card but my first point still applies. Manufacturers of all types of good try and clamp down on grey imports. Mostly it's borderline illegal but it's the way it is. The likes of EB and S+R do effectively fix the price but not intentionally... other retailers use their catalogues against them by undercutting slightly. Nobody is getting rich on selling skis...
Prices here are affected mainly by scale (bigger proportion of a ski has to go to overheads), high retail rents etc.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, that's very good, excellent in fact. There's specialist and uber-specialist.
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You know it makes sense.
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matching fitters with clients that keeps these numbers down
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If you gave me an attractive brunette with a low cut top I'd be back for a refitting..most days.
Can you tell that by looking at your clients...?? Wow you're good. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
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50% pleased and 50% disappointed
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I'm assuming that the bike stores will continue to be run by their existing management and that the price paid will have been based on the profit generating ability that exists already. I find it far more confusing than the ski market. I mean, Halfords can sell a 21 speed, disc braked, full suspension jobby for say £199 yet, up the road at the "specialist retailer", there's something seemingly very similar for £1999. Fella up the road from me says his bike cost £5k but, frankly, I can't see the difference between his and my £400 thing. It's a maze. |
Lift up his £5k bike and there lies the biggest noticeable difference, minus the quality of the components (therefore durability and weight) frame geometry ability to climb descend etc! Chances are its Carbon-which is far more expensive to mould to bike frame shape than Alu which the £400 would probably be made from.
Ross
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Poster: A snowHead
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[quote="Rossfra8"]Lift up his £5k bike and there lies the biggest noticeable difference
Or try cycling uphill on it
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, agreed about skis - like bananas and baked beans they are where Customers look to save money. However customers don't seem as price sensitive for Ski Clothing. Do you have any idea what S&Rs margin (not mark-up) is over all its winter goods?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haha lifting it up would require less effort 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Rossfra8, his bike is way lighter... but he isn't 
stoatsbrother, no idea on their margin but cost of city centre stores (esp in London) means they have to be talented retailers to survive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
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As for the experts (CEM, Lockwoods etc.) I cannot accept that they have as high a percentage of misses with their fitting
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nobody has suggested that they do. |
Sorry, I must have misinterpreted the following:
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| I doubt the small community of specialist boot fitting retailers have a proportionately better success rate |
So you're actually saying.... 
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| But, dealing with humans and their putrid, boney feet, means you're not going to get it right all the time. |
Well yes, but I suspect they do have a proportionately better success rate than S+R although I'm sure, as with any trade involving customer satisfaction, there are still some misses.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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roga, What I'm saying is that I couldn't care either way as my own feet aren't involved. All I started was a thread about S+R getting into bikes now it's a scientific look at boot fitting success rates. Am I getting the horses head treatment tonight?
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Bode Swiller, rotating mass counts for more... or so goes the sales pitch to fat blokes with money to spare.
I wouldn't disagree with much you say - except that talented and succesful automatically means the product the punters get is good.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
LOL.
fair point, 
