 Poster: A snowHead
|
Ski breaks are being booked much earlier this year, particularly for the peak February period. Operators are even taking bookings for 2006 and 2007... Reports This Sunday Times article.
A case of an increase in people wanting to take winter sports holidays? Or is concern over the effects of climate change encouraging snow lovers to try to book during the traditionally snow sure month of February?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 31-10-04 9:59; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
It may have something to do with the education system. There are more public tests and exams than ever, and schools are terrified of slipping down league tables: they have become much less tolerant of pupils having time out of school for family holidays. I think that's a shame on many counts: likely to lead to a generation of narrowly educated couch potatoes, as well as producing sharp peaks and troughs for holiday accommodation (and hence prices).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I'll back you up on that one laundryman.. I've heard from several sources that many schools now are trying to stop children taking time out during term time for holidays. For our family when our children were still at school we opted to take our trips during term times simply because of how much tour operators increase their prices during these periods. Why pay through the nose simply because its half term, when going a week earlier or later can save a small fortune!! And I can honestly add it didnt harm either childs education especially when our eldest daughter graduated from university this summer with a 1st with honours (the only one on her course).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
It's Charles Clarke's fault. He's talked about fining middle class parents who take their kids out of school to benefit from cheaper prices, and schools didn't need much encouragement to start bullying parents in support of him. I put it down to envy - teachers think, "If I can't benefit from bargain holiday deals, why should my pupils be allowed to?". Clarke's also been hassling the travel industry to provide cheaper holidays during school time.
Teachers are fools (come on, challenge me  - I feel angry about this!) to support his drive. Supply is finite at peak periods and, if demand increases, then either prices will rise or queues will develop. Who suffers most? Teachers do - they have a whole working lifetime of expensive holidays, not just a few years.
I'm gobsmacked that anyone with a family can afford a package skiing holiday at half term. The article mentions that Esprit is taking deposits for 2006: with them, a week in Tignes for a family of five costs about £1,800 in January, but £4,800 at half term. And you'd probably get a last-minute discount in January, too...
[edited to correct momentary lapse of memory regarding identity of education secretary!]
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| PG wrote: |
This Sunday Times report suggests that ski breaks are being booked much earlier this year, particularly for the peak February period. Operators are even taking bookings for 2006 and 2007.
A case of an increase in people wanting to take winter sports holidays? Or is concern over the effects of climate change encouraging snow lovers to try to book during the traditionally snow sure month of February? |
Marketing hype?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
| Teachers are fools |
Fortunately most teachers will put the educational needs of their pupils above any (theoretical) personal gain from having slightly lower demand during school holidays. Envy doesn't come into it.
There might have been some noise from the chattering classes about fines for parents who take their children on holiday during term time, but the reality is that the legislation was not designed to be used for this purpose and it's almost inconceivable that it would be.
Schools have had a duty to maximise pupil attendance for many years - it certainly isn't something that Charles Clarke introduced. Since 1981 headteachers have been able to authorise up to 10 days leave for the purpose of family holidays during term-time, and like so much in education a common-sense decision reached between the school and parents should be the guide as to whether a holiday during term time is sensible or not
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Nick Zotov wrote: |
| Marketing hype? |
Bound to be to an extent, but it's true that in BSM/Les Arcs I've heard from some holiday business owners that peak periods could have have been sold several times over. Demand is considerably up from last year, more French seem to be booking early as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Nick, no it's not, I know from our own experience, that the peak weeks sell out earlier and faster each year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think earlier booking is more to do with the number of people booking their own holidays rather than increase in the number of people travelling per se. There is no longer the need to wait until the brochure from your favourite package operator hits the travel agent's shelves, you can just go ahead and make the booking yourslef, often directly with the accommodation owner/travel operator.
If you are limited to peak periods it makes sense to book earlier as you have the widest choice available to you and possibly get the best prices from low-cost airlines, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
As I've mentioned before, kids can suffer greatly from missing school. It also puts extra work onto the teacher who has to ensure that the child doesn't fall behind. For 1 child missing 1 week it's not the end of the world, but if all 30 kids take a different week off, it soon adds up.
Sorry, but if you choose to have kids, then you either go during school holidays, or go without the kids.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
rob, you're absolutely right, the 'budget' airlines really hike their prices around the peak weeks, although you can still get some bargains, I was checking Easyjet prices for Xmas week, on behalf of a potential client, last week and I was amazed how cheap they were. So if anyone's thinking about Xmas week (19th - 26th Dec) there are still cheap flights available.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| Sorry, but if you choose to have kids, then you either go during school holidays, or go without the kids. |
I quite agree. it's just middle class whining and best left to the Daily Mail 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Not so much of a problem taking kids out of school in France. No questions asked at primary, stricter in secondary school. But the onus is on parent and child to ensure he/she catches up, and kids finding school hard going won't get permission so easily. If there's a hard and fast rule it's ignored - schools/teachers use their own judgement.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Elizabeth B wrote:
| Quote: |
kids can suffer greatly from missing school
|
Kids can also benefit hugely from learning new sport, such as skiing. Sport does have intrinsic value - why else would schools bother with PE?
| Quote: |
Sorry, but if you choose to have kids, then you either go during school holidays, or go without the kids.
|
Parents taking a term-time skiing holiday without their children is hardly child-centric. In part - a large part - I ski because I want my kids to have the opportunity to ski.
How many parents can afford £4,800 (see my earlier post)? Far fewer than can afford £1,800. For many families, the choice is not between term-time or half-term, it's between term-time and not at all. And, sorry teachers (my wife used to teach and she agrees with me), I believe that a week on the slopes brings a typical primary school child more benefit than a week in your tender care.
Stopping term-time skiing would irritate the rich but badly affect lower middle income families who are desperate to give their kids the best opportunities they can afford.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
| Stopping term-time skiing would irritate the rich but badly affect lower middle income families |
Who is talking about stopping term time skiing? There is a law which specifically allows schools to authorise term-time absence for family holidays, balanced by sanctions for the very small proportion of families who abuse the system and have their kids out of school far too often.
Your anger at government and the teachers who you say foolishly follow them is misplaced. It is simply a question of supply and demand, so it really should be this wicked capitalist system we've created that bears the brunt of your wrath. Or you could ignore the headlines in the Daily Mail and realise that the system for family holidays during term time works pretty well providing neither schools nor parents abuse it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
My anger is at the head teacher in my kids' primary school. He's taken the recent chatter from government as a prompt to issue a number of hectoring letters to parents, attempting to demonise those who are irresponsible enough to take family holidays in term time. He has the power to authorise term-time absences, but says he will only grant such requests in exceptional circumstances. If only 10% of heads have the same attitude, that would explain the rise in peak period demand.
Still, the great thing about our wicked capitalist system is that it gives parents a choice of school. If he upsets enough of us, he might have to change his mind or stare at a row of empty desks 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Jonny Jones, he has the power to authorise term-time absences, but he doesn't have the power to stop you taking your kids on holiday during term-time. If you, as a parent, believe that your kids will benefit more from a week's skiing than a week in school then I think you should take them skiing. What's the worst that can happen? Just so long as your kid's attendance record is normal, having a few extra days unauthorised absence (which is easily explained as a family holiday) will not make any difference.
I think you are being a little unfair on your kid's headteacher. Schools are under pressure from national and local government to reduce unauthorised absence, not just those due to family holidays but for a whole host of other reasons. This is perfectly sensible in my opinion as there is a long list of reasons, at both pupil and whole class level, why it is better for kids to be in school than out of it. Your headteacher is just responding to this by putting pressure on parents not to withdraw kids during term-time (again, rightly in my opinion). However, nobody is suggesting that parents have no choice in this matter - providing it is a case of "all things in moderation" there should not be a problem. If you kid's school is not being reasonable about this, maybe they are not being reasonable about a long list of other things and you should exercise your right to choose another school. As you suggest, this would soon change your headteacher's opinion if enough parents do the same.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
There's a balance to be struck between educational and holiday needs. Schools should be allocated to regions, with staggered holiday weeks according to region.
This would spread the February fever pitch, and reduce prices.
Isn't this what the French do?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
| Isn't this what the French do? |
European holiday dates
As for the French, that's a must, the numbers involved are huge. Don't see why it shouldn't apply to the UK as well, although at first sight from this chart, no other country has this system... (can't make out the Czech arrangements though, they seem to have a holiday that starts at the end of January and finishes mid-March! Has to be a staggered holiday, surely?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
David, the French holidays are spread over a three week period with three regions. Inevitablly there's some overlap, which usually coincides with the UK's half-term week.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 1-11-04 23:06; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Goldsmith, note the French Easter holidays are staggered too...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
| Isn't this what the French do? |
Yes, and to a small extent it happens in the UK as well, although not so much for the February half-term.
Being a cynic I suggest that the holiday companies would just extend their peak season period as families holidaying in half-term week are still a captive audience, even if peak demand is spread over three weeks rather than just one.
Having regional holiday patterns can also cuase significant inconvenience for the minority of families who straddle the catchment area of different regions/authorities and have kids in different schools.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I think Elizabeths idea that missing a week will make a huge difference is wrong. Going abroad, to new environments, cultures and doing some sport is probably a lot more educational than being at school. Could easily make them keep a diary, write up on the area etc.
Do you not go because of the extra cost involved. Looking at flights ours with BA the week before is £600, half term £1500. I know people say thats how companies make money. But it sounds a rip off to me.
One of the schools in our area is so over subscribed, that they have publicly stated that any children taken out of school to go on holiday, will have their places offered to other children. So they cannot guarentee your child will have a place when you come back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
Kids can also benefit hugely from learning new sport, such as skiing. Sport does have intrinsic value - why else would schools bother with PE?
|
Of course sport has intrinsic value, but you can learn at any age. The 16 yr olds that I work with who can't do basic maths and english find it a great stigma to be doing "change from a five pound note" whilst their peers are studying A-levels. No 16 yr old suffers a stigma from learning to ski at that age.
| Quote: |
Stopping term-time skiing would irritate the rich but badly affect lower middle income families who are desperate to give their kids the best opportunities they can afford. |
The best opportunity that any parent can give their child is the opportunity to have a decent education. My parents spent several years saving up to take me on a skiing holiday. At the time, I'd rather have skipped school for a week, but looking back, it was the right decision.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
stackem evs, missing one week at primary school probably won't make a lot of difference. Missing one week in YR11, and consequently missing the coursework deadline for a GCSE could be the difference between a pass and a fail.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| As I've mentioned before, kids can suffer greatly from missing school. |
The operative word is 'can'. 'Kids' can also benefit greatly from missing school. It depends on the 'kid' and the circumstances of the absence.
| Quote: |
| Sorry, but if you choose to have kids, then you either go during school holidays, or go without the kids. |
The real question is who should decide what is in the best interest of the 'kids' -- the parents, the headteacher, the secretary of state or Elizabeth B. Mrs Laundryman and I take decisions about our kids. We may take into account the views of the headteacher, because she knows them. But I couldn't give a monkey's about the views of Charles Clarke or Elizabeth B.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
One of the schools in our area is so over subscribed, that they have publicly stated that any children taken out of school to go on holiday, will have their places offered to other children. So they cannot guarentee your child will have a place when you come back.
|
That school is breaking the law. The The Education (Pupil Registration) Regulations 1995 prescribes the circumstances that a school can delete a pupil from the school roll. These include:
Section 9(e) in the case of a pupil granted leave of absence exceeding ten school days for the purpose of a holiday ... that the pupil has failed to attend the school within the ten school days immediately following the expiry of the period for which such leave was granted, and the proprietor is not satisfied that the pupil is unable to attend the school by reason of sickness or any unavoidable cause;
Section 9(g) that he has been continuously absent from school for a period of not less than four weeks and both the proprietor of the school and the local education authority have failed, after reasonable enquiry, to locate the pupil.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
As laundryman says, there is no standard pattern child to generalise about. Some would benefit, some wouldn't, from a snow sports holiday during term time. I beg to differ that you can learn sports at any age too. Talent is best spotted, and nurtured, early. Not everyone will be a Hermann Maier, but it's a shame that some much potential is wasted through the rigidity of a system.
Much depends on the parents' desire and ability to ensure that the child is able to make up for lost time when back at school.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I don't believe this one headteacher's attitude is uncommon. The heads of our children's Infant and Junior schools have issued similarly strong letters. Certainly for primary school children I think this is way over the top, especially if the children are keeping up well with their peers.
I've seen this from both sides, as most of my family are teachers or work in education. There really should be a more flexible system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
| There really should be a more flexible system. |
I'm not sure how much more flexibility could be built into the system. The government puts pressure on schools to reduce unauthorised absence; schools put pressure on parents to minimise unauthorised absence; but the decision whether to take holidays during term-time really rests with parents. If parents abuse the system there are a number of sanctions available to schools, including the 'nuclear option' of removing a pupil from the school roll. This seems a fairly balanced system, trying to find a sensible compromise between legitimate education and family requirements.
Jonny, there is lots of guidance on the internet on the regulations which apply to term-time absence, including on the goivernment's own website. It took me three minutes to find the actual legislation and less than that to find the 'parent-freindly' guidance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| laundryman wrote: |
| The real question is who should decide what is in the best interest of the 'kids' |
Educationally...the teachers. They're the professionals. If you want health advice, you go and see a doctor. If you want advice on what's best for your kids education, then talk to their teacher. Unless, of course, you know more...but if that is the case, they why aren't you home educating? Then you can choose exactly when to have holidays.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| The real question is who should decide what is in the best interest of the 'kids' |
Educationally...the teachers. They're the professionals. If you want health advice, you go and see a doctor. If you want advice on what's best for your kids education, then talk to their teacher. Unless, of course, you know more...but if that is the case, they why aren't you home educating? Then you can choose exactly when to have holidays. |
I haven't been around that long! But my personal experience is of doctors who've misdiagnosed cancer as "muscular pain" among other classic blunders, surgeons who have operated on the wrong limb, tax accountants who've handed out advice that if taken would have cost me tens of thousands of £. I've come across a dishonest solicitor and incompetent barristers. A child psychologist who separated an 8 year old boy from the remainder of his family to send him into the care of a suicidal and sadistic mother. An infant school teacher whose idea of discipline involved tying a 6 year old to a chair for jiggling around too much, and a junior school teacher who continues to get away with frequent racist comments during lessons - twenty years in the job, and counting. There are excellent people in all fields, but a qualification is hardly a guarantee of quality, and I reckon there are as many useless professionals as cowboy plumbers (probably more!)
Now if I need a professional opinion, I ask at least three or four 'pros' the same question, and then I still take any advice given with a sizeable pinch of salt. When it comes to knowing what's best in educational terms for my children, the teacher's views are an element to be taken into consideration, no more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
When it comes to knowing what's best in educational terms for my children, the teacher's views are an element to be taken into consideration, no more.
|
The important words here are 'my children'. I'll listen to the advice of professional educators on all sorts of things, but I'll never let them take control. If I, as a parent, believe that my child's life experience will be enhanced by learning to ski when the rest of the class are stuck in a classroom, I'll do it. Parents have a much broader perspective than teachers can ever have.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| PG wrote: |
| Now if I need a professional opinion, I ask at least three or four 'pros' the same question, and then I still take any advice given with a sizeable pinch of salt. When it comes to knowing what's best in educational terms for my children, the teacher's views are an element to be taken into consideration, no more. |
Very wise. As Churchill said of one breed of expert, "scientists should be on tap, not on top". (And I speak as a some time scientist.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The saddest thing is for this holiday-v-school stress to develop into conflict between parents and teachers. As the son and husband of teachers I know the immense dedication and commitment they provide.
It is for the government to resolve this issue so that people can go on holiday at reasonable cost with their kids, and not force parents to feel that they are conspirators in truancy.
Teachers - and headteachers - must not be left in the middle of this, taking the heat. Their jobs are anything but easy as it is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If the whole of Europe followed the French example there wouldn't be much of a problem. There would be about 5 or 6 weeks of half term hols every year + the same at Easter. I've advised so many people to come at Easter that I'm already fully booked for the main week, and have been for some time.
However it's very annoying (in the business) to have to turn away customers and then to have weeks with virtually no income at all afterwards. I don't know about TOs profiteering, I should think there's an element of that, but they also have to pay for the staff and buildings etc. when there's almost no-one there.
With regard to whether it damages kids to be away from school for a week: when I was small we were always given work to do while we were away. I understand that they've stopped that now as they're afraid it'll encourage more parents to take their kids out of school! However, if they're learning another language, meeting kids from other countries and so on then it's clearly educational. The same cannot be said for Benidorm or Palma though!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
