 Poster: A snowHead
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Thought I'd resurrect this hot potato.
As I'm doing more off piste skiing, the idea of getting an ABS or avalung backpack appeals. The way I see it is-
ABS -
Positives - lots of guides seem to use them, seems better to be floating on top of an avalanche rather than sitting in it waiting to be rescued.
Negatives - transporting in on a plane, cost.
Avalung -
Positives - cheaper, no problems with transporting on a plane, slightly more compact.
Negatives - not sure whether it is as good a system?
Thoughts please gnarly off piste dudes and dudettes. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Once your head is buried, you are in big big trouble. The statistics are not in your favor, and you are reliant on others for your life. So IMHO the ABS scores highly over the avalung but not as highly as avoiding being caught in the first place, this is not a fatuous comment, as I strongly believe that "safety devices" that embolden more than they protect are debatable.
Anyway James Bond uses an ABS.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have an Avalung, the major problem for me is that you need to get the tube into your mouth the moment you think you are going to be caught in a slide, and then keep it in there whilst tumbling around etc.
For me the ABS would be the one to go for, but, as you say there are issues for me with it's weight, cost and transportation!
Cheers,
greg
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
floating on top of an avalanche rather than sitting in it waiting to be rescued
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The choice sounds so fluffy and lovely. Do they bring tea and cakes?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, or option 3, being a pink smudge within the avalanche?
jbob, totally agree, point taken.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
the major problem for me is that you need to get the tube into your mouth the moment you think you are going to be caught in a slide, and then keep it in there whilst tumbling around etc.
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that is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
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Bode Swiller, I think that was his point.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kitenski, Halloween was last night 
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kitenski, I'm aware of how the thing works, it's the fact that you think that you'd be able to stick it in your mouth and have the talent to keep it there whilst being tumble dried by several gigatons of snow, ice, rock, bits of tree, your mates etc etc. (you might be lucky and get a powdery one) You'd probably rob yourself of the time to get rid of skis, you may well not notice the slide until it's too late, you're ignoring the fact that your mouth will open very wide while you're screaming! I seriously hope you are joking.
Out of casual interest... ever been in one and tested it for real?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| kitenski, Halloween was last night |
Fortunately that's not me
Bode Swiller - there are some accident reports on their site where people have used it succesfully. To be honest, you can extend it so it is virtually touching your lips so it's a "simple" case of turning your mouth, grabbing it and clenching
http://www.avalung.com/flash/avalung.html
Some excerpts:
http://www.avalung.com/flash/fiehn-e.pdf
Was it easy or difficult to take the mouthpiece in your mouth and to breathe?
While the avalanche was running I already took the mouthpiece in my mouth. That was no
problem and I needed no hands which weren’t available anyway.
http://www.avalung.com/flash/AvaLung_Interview_Tignes-e.pdf
> Was if easy/difficult to get the mouthpiece in and breathe?
I took the mouthpiece in my mouth as soon as I noticed that I had lost all my speed relative to the
avalanche, and at this moment I was still standing up. It was a huge help to breathe through the
avalung while being dragged down the slope. The avalung was easy to breathe through, and I
could focus on what to do when I was buried, instead of struggle with snow in my mouth and
lungs.
http://www.avalung.com/flash/ava-ca-e.pdf
The Senior Guide was present during a later debriefing of the survivor. The victim had heard
a warning, crouched down, fumbled a little with the tubing but crammed the mouthpiece
into his mouth and “went for a ride”. He clamped down on the mouthpiece with his teeth,
but could not hold onto it with his hands. He could not clear an airspace in front of his face
because his hands had been forced out to his sides, However, he said that he had no
problem keeping the mouthpiece in his mouth. After stopping he relaxed immediately; “like
we teach them”, said the Senior Guide. The guest had no significant trauma and wanted to
ski again a couple of days later.
Cheers,
Greg
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Maybe it's time for European resports to take a leaf from their North-American counterparts.
On my visit to Whistler last year, the amount of skiiable, avalanche controlled, patrolled off-piste was massive. In fact most of the area within the Whistler resort boundries was "safe" to ski (on or off pistes).
I'm not saying that the off-piste in the US/Canada is as safe as skiing on-piste - but the general consensus from the instructors/locals was that avalanche gear was not required.
Just a thought ....
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kitenski, well, he's a lucky boy and he had a very co-operative avalanche.
Delighted to hear that the pic isn't you.
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You know it makes sense.
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"Maybe it's time for European resports to take a leaf from their North-American counterparts"
No thanks..........thats the beauty of Europe!
Anyway, it would be impossible to secure the "off piste" in most european resorts due to the shear scale of terrain covered.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Surprised there is not a combined ABS / Avalung backpack. None of these devices are perfect but could push your chances of survival. The downside with any safety device is the extra confidence they may give leading you to do things you wouldn't do otherwise. Think helmets - do you ski faster with one on or are the only people likely to wear them skiing the sort of people that poodle around anyway.
I generally feel safer off piste with or without additional equipment - less chance of a collision than on some over crowded icy blue run.
The point about inbouds off-trail in NA - when i was in fernie I still wore my bleep whenever there was some decent powder, despite what the locals say about not needing avalanche gear. There are cases in NA off inbound avalanches, I think rare but can still happen.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ok, let's not get side tracked with a Europe vs North America thing.
Does anyone own an ABS pack, and have they had trouble travelling with it on a plane.
I know that you can hire them in lots of resorts, but I'm a) a snowHead and b) a gadget freak so I want my own.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| norris wrote: |
"Maybe it's time for European resports to take a leaf from their North-American counterparts"
No thanks..........thats the beauty of Europe!
Anyway, it would be impossible to secure the "off piste" in most european resorts due to the shear scale of terrain covered. |
Agree.
Kramer I would go for ABS, it costs more and it might cause one or two travel issues but is an amazing piece of equipment.
There are too many instances where the Avalung won't make much difference... eg away from the piste and the whole group get buried, who's gonna dig you out? Wait for the pros? Who called them? OK, they just got called, Pros arrive, what will they see first?
Get an ABS.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am sure you can travel with the pack, just not the air canister - i think you would have to buy one locally??
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reckon I could be interested in a group discount! One of the guys JT has skied with wore one last year, hopefully he'll pipe up on here...
ABS, the German manufacturer, studied 26 avalanches worldwide between 1991 and 2000 where the Airbag was used. 40 people were equipped with Airbags, 32 people were found with the airbags deployed, 6 hadn't activated the system and 2 systems hadn't worked due to technical problems. Half of the 32 victims remained on the surface of the slide. Of the 5 people completely buried their airbags were visible on the surface. The system does not help if the victim is stationary within an avalanche, say trapped by rocks or a tree. An avalanche transceiver should always be worn as well.
Their webpage suggests http://www.abssystem.com/abs-Dateien/main-Dateien/facts/airtransport.htm
Since 2003 it is officially permitted by the IATA organization to take your ABS pack with you when you travel by air worldwide. Please print out the enclosed .pdf file and present it to the check in personell at the airport. These forms are also available at (most) airports.
As far as we know, all European airlines transport the ABS without a problem. Due to recent developments American airlines tend to refuse the transportation of ABS. Please check with your airline before you book your flight.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ABS should just agree with all there suppliers / re-sellers to make the gas available at all outlets to pack owners...
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brian
brian
Guest
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Some Swiss guys have come up with one that gives increased head protection and then automatically deflates a bit to create an air pocket. Doesn't look like they've started selling yet, maybe parlor could pop round for a chat ....
http://www.snowpulse.com/
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They're based here in Verbier but I can't find anything out about it locally other than it has had problems... One of the main complaints is that once inflated you can't move your head, a good thing if you get caught up in the slide, a bad thing if you otherwise still had chance to escape...
The jury is out on this product for a little longer. It's been in development for a while and none of the manufacturers are touching it yet. I hope to be proved wrong. And maybe sponsored???
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Similar to this vest which was tested by the SLF at Davos at the same time.
http://avagear.net/
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jonflat2 wrote: |
| Maybe it's time for European resports to take a leaf from their North-American counterparts. |
No way... The beauty of the European system is that you take complete responsibility for yourself when off piste.
Therefore allowing lift access to terrain such as the Aiguille Du Midi, Mont Gele and La Grave.
As for ABS or avalung.... ? I would choose the ABS.
Because your top priority in event of a slide should be to avoid burial (not to breath under the snow!).
Alot of european pisteur's now use this system on a day to day basis.
The stats on the ABS www site are very impressive.
http://www.abssystem.com/
And there might even an argument for ABS being more effective than an avy beacon and well trained mates ?
Though unfortunately ABS systems are very expensive (500 euros up)
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Kramer, ... I use an ABS pack and would recommend it in the context of this debate. I leave it in France. No problems travelling with the pack - just the gas cannister with some airlines. These will obviously be the airlines that you intend to use .... 
Not sure if you can rent the cannisters yet, but you can buy them for about 30 euro in most resorts. PM if you want to buy one in France.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Downside of owning an abs.........
You'll allways be the poor sod to go first !!!!!!!
Seriously though great bit of kit gives you a sense of security (dont abuse it though) in those (I really dont like the look of this,what the **** am i doing here i just wanna get down) LOL 
Escape 15 nice and compact.
Regards Mark
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yep, skied with BC and a telemarker friend who both have them and I think ABS would be the best option.
I believe that you will see more and more guides insisting they are used on their trips so it could just be another thing to hire before long.
Personally, I wouldn't like to see it forced in this way but atm I think it is the best thing out there.
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| parlor wrote: |
| They're based here in Verbier but I can't find anything out about it locally other than it has had problems... One of the main complaints is that once inflated you can't move your head, a good thing if you get caught up in the slide |
Yes, it is kind of the idea that your head won't move however the sacks deflate after a short while leaving you with an airpocket. Obviously it is still in development - product launch is expected for 2008/9 with a pricing around the 750 euro mark.
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You know it makes sense.
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Sadly the people with an avalung who were unable to get it in their mouth in time are mostly unable to comment.. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just look for statistics of dead victims equipped with avalung then. They can indeed speak from the dead.
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Poster: A snowHead
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BernardC, have you actually taken your pack on the plane? How about the cannisters, are they ok in hand luggage?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I mentioned avalungs on another thread and Yoda said that someone at last years EoSB said how many lives they saved by preventing the build up of CO2 - yes I understand the theory of the argument and I had a look at the web site. However, I still doubt with x number of tonnes of snow on your chest in whatever orientation that you would be able to breath at all in many situations. N.B. I don't intend any practical experience to find out either!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Kramer, have you searched previous posts here on Snowheads? I wrote about my ABS bag in this thread. There are also words about Avalungs. I seem to recall many other threads about both safety devices.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Adrian, yeah I remember the previous discussions, just thought that I'd see if we have any more experience recently.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd get an ABS out of the 2 but travel hassle is a major deterrent. BA refused to give me an answer when I emailed them & I think casual hops over on a lo-co would be a major hassle.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Kramer, I have taken the pack, but never the gas cannister, or the firing toggle (which has a 9mm cartridge in it!). There is another thread on here - fairly recent, as I remember researching the Civil Aviation rules on the ABS pack. By the letter of the law it is perfectly legal to carry them - gas cannister included. Will try to find it.
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BernardC, Don't have one yet - I get a lot of ski days in but as frequent trips so €30 a pop would soon mount up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think as mentioned in the thread that Sir Bernard links to, it's up to the carrier to give permission. That also relies on the carrier getting the permission to the people at the check in, and at security that it's ok to carry. Ideally without being held up for two hours at every stage of the process.
The avalung may be a better bet after all.
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Kramer, ABS is the way to go - looks cool. Avalung (unless built in to a pack) looks like you wrapped a shower-fitting round your neck.
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FAQ
