 Poster: A snowHead
|
PisteHead, Not sure about that, taller will = higher centre of gravity in relation to the ground.
FastMan, Changing Ramp angles, softening/stiffening the boot, not much else to it. Need to be aware of the effects of the Footbed, over compensation reduces dorsiflexion.
However i disagree with a lack of flexion leading to an inability to presure the front of the boot. (Do you mean Cuff or Lug?) Cuff yes, Lug no.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
As an aside, I was once skiing with an ex member of the Austrian team and a friend asked him how much he should have his ankles flexed as a base 'all the time' thing. Mikkel though a bit (clearly thinking my pal was bonkers) and replied 'a right Angel is about right, then you can go forward or back' (note the spelling of the word 'Angel'! I reckon it was good advice to a Grade 2 skier. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
SZK, You are probably right. I have very limited (2 weeks) skiing experience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
easiski, that ties up with what offpisteskiing said in that it is all about having a RANGE of motion not just a constant forward flex.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
PisteHead, I am not convinced that hevier people have the advantage you refer to...or at least not aesthetically 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
| 6 year old lange 120's are a hell of a lot stiffer than my new lange 120's |
Ahhhhhh. If they are the Comp 120's then you're already at a disadvantage, as those have a 17 deg aggressive forward lean to start with.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, It's true what you read, it is due to poor skiing. So don't take any notice of these ass holes on this site. They're stupid and havn't a clue what they are talking about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just done the test and it confirms my poor flex: 11cm on left foot and 8cm on right. These may go up a tad (particularly on the left) if I did it in the evening, but it's never going to be good. Exercises (and I do a reasonable number, but not particularly diligently) may help the left foot, but there's not a lot of point as the right is blocked by something hard at the front of the ankle rather than a stiff calf - that will never improve much short of surgery.
I would love to have more flex, but it's not going to happen. Doctors, who have commented on lack of flex in other joints - I just have to face that I'm not a flexible person -, and bootfitters understand this. I do find though that instructors (who frequently have good flex) do not understand that these problems are inherent rather than just due to lack of exercise. While it's of course desirable to make that flex range as great as possible, we need to learn to manage what we have rather than work on some ideal. In particular, the desired "neutral" stance will frequently have the ankles at their fully flexed position. This then leaves you with nil further forward movement to put additional pressure on the ski, or accommodate lumps and bumps in the snow. (Edit: just seen FastMan's post - good man.)
Things that have helped are bits of cork to lift the heel (thank you SZK), to put the neutral position more in the centre of the range of ankle movement, and having a stiffer boot (advice from CEM and LZK). If you have poor flexing range the last thing you should have is a soft flexing boot. Irrespective of how soft your boot is you will not be able to flex beyond a certain point. The job of the boot is to transmit your movements into pressure on the skis. If your boots are soft you will never get enough pressure onto the ski from that limited movement, but a boot with more resistance will turn those limited movements into sufficient pressure onto the ski.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 25-10-07 9:02; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| PisteHead wrote: |
| I managed about 15 cms and looking at the amount of ankle flex the interior angle between my shin and foot is a lot more than 45 degrees. For a 30 cm drop the it seems my ankles need to flex at a freakish angle, reckon 30-40 degrees, can't imagine a below 45 degree interior angle between shin and foot. |
Sorry, but I think your perception is a bit out. Assuming 80cm from ankle to hip, and approximately equal length femur and tibia a 15cm drop would be 54 degrees at ankle and hip, and 108 degrees at the knee. You're in the zone for the 30cm drop though: 38 and 76 degrees respectively. Note that small drops are very insensitive to ankle flex angle though - those of us managing only 10cm still have 61 degrees angle at the ankle.
(BTW, pixies should scale the drop achieved by a given angle by the ankle to hip distance - if that distance is only 60cm, the drop for a given angle will be only 3/4 of that for the taller person)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| GrahamN wrote: |
In particular, the desired "neutral" stance will frequently have the ankles at their fully flexed position. This then leaves you with nil further forward movement to put additional pressure on the ski, or accommodate lumps and bumps in the snow. (Edit: just seen FastMan's post - good man.)
Things that have helped are bits of cork to lift the heel (thank you SZK), to put the neutral position more in the centre of the range of ankle movement, and having a stiffer boot (advice from CEM and LZK). If you have poor flexing range the last thing you should have is a soft flexing boot. Irrespective of how soft your boot is you will not be able to flex beyond a certain point. The job of the boot is to transmit your movements into pressure on the skis. If your boots are soft you will never get enough pressure onto the ski from that limited movement, but a boot with more resistance will turn those limited movements into sufficient pressure onto the ski. |
Nice post Graham! That strikes so many chords. During a no-poles exercise with an instructor last year I discovered that I tend to lean on my poles when I stop to give my stretched achilles/soleus a rest and without them I was in agony and hobbling for the rest of the week as a result, it took me 20 minutes every morning just to get my heel on the floor. Half-inch heel lifts did the trick in the end. When I got new boots later in the season (at Freeride on SZK's recommendation), the bootfitter started off with "you won't need a heel lift of that size" and ended up putting the full half inch back in. I also agree about the stiffer boot - after all, you can always make them less stiff by leaving the leg buckles on the catch but not fully closed. My boots aren't fully bedded in yet (have only had about 6 days on them) but at the moment I'm leaving the buckles not fully done up on easy terrain, and doing them up properly when I need the extra control and transfer of forces on steeper stuff
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Blade wrote: |
| skimottaret, It's true what you read, it is due to poor skiing. So don't take any notice of these ass holes on this site. They're stupid and havn't a clue what they are talking about. |
Huhh... what are you smoking, there are at least 4 top level instructors and a very experienced bootfitter contributing on this thread, and they do know what they are talking about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
GrahamN, nice summary. One question though if you feel that for those who have a more limited range of ankle movement you should have a stiffer boot does the converse hold in that if you have more range a softer boot will allow for more use of the range of movement?
I must admit that my initial thoughts were completely opposite to what has come out. Originally i assumed that if you have a stiff ankle you should get a softer boot to assist with achieveing a wider range of ankle flex but this thread seems to be indicating that one should have a stiffer boot that is set up more carefully in the neutral point of the individuals limited range of movement to make best use of what natural flex they have.
I am still not convinced about this as Warren Smith for example seems to be a big proponent of softer boots to allow for increased range of motion...
ps thanks for doing the maths i thought 30cm would be impossible for someone say of easyskis height
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| I am still not convinced about this as Warren Smith for example seems to be a big proponent of softer boots to allow for increased range of motion... |
Obv I'm not GrahamN, or any sort of scientist/medic, but his post still makes sense to me. Softer boots can only allow an increased range of motion if the range of motion is there to have in the first place. So presumably Warren Smith's theory is don't actively *reduce* your range of movement by having boots that are too stiff; it is working on the assumption that you have a good range of movement in the first place. It seems logical that a stiffer boot that reacts more quickly to smaller movements would be of benefit if you only have small movements to make
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
I must be one of the few people to have been on a course with WS that hasn't been asked to hack my boots to bits.
They're X-Wave 10's with zipfits and a booster strap inside the tounge, so they're fairly stiff too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
GrahamN, how does a naturally inflexible skier then do avalement on bumps?
Is there a large bend forward at the hip?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Mosha Marc, GrahamN, I think you may be right in that WS is focussing on lower level skiers with his drive towards softer boots and high ankle flex. I havent been on one of his courses but bought the video and really like a lot of his drills and the ankle flex hops for instance really helped me on improving my short turns
I am still unclear as to what is a correct or good level of flex. If you are racing i think rjs would advocate very little flex to better transmit your movements through your boots to the skis and if you are in bumps I would think a boot with more give will help with absorbtion and opening/closing the ankle more effectively, (if you have a reasonable range of movement)
I have to admit to liking my softer boots, much more comfortable and whilst they perhaps arent as high performance as a stiff race boot i can do backwards ploughs all day with beginners without killing my feet
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
I am still unclear as to what is a correct or good level of flex.
|
There is not a 'correct' amount. If your skis are working properly, then you have the 'correct' amount of flex. By this I mean that at the start of the turn you have enough pressure on the shovel for the ski to grip, and at the end of the turn you've allowed the ski to grip along it's length rather than having it uncontrollably (as opposed to a controlled skid which can be a good thing) skid sideways. This means that not just the amount, but the timing of the movements is important.
Flexing and extending should be continuous movements, rather than a set, fixed position.
Does that help ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
comprex, if ever I find out I'll let you know - I'm a truly crap bumps skier  . At the EoSB 2006 I did get somewrere with a stong upper body, but on anything much larger than a molehill I do normally get spat out the back a huge amount. Consciously thinking of closing the ankles as much as possible, then letting them just relax rather than actively open, when skiing over mildly bumpy terrain did help quite a bit.
This thread has reminded me that I have heel lifts in my touring boots (the only boots I used at the time I got the lifts), but not in my new alpine/race boots, which I'm now using in preference. I'm wondering now if I should do something about that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
GrahamN, I need to check my stats, but there is a reason this is currently working. The Denali and your Head have different ramp angles, Head being taken from the Zeppa and Denali being taken off the horizontal Sole, i'll try and brush up on my specifics. If my memory serves me right, the Head has a greater ramp angle(5 degrees) and less forward lean(12 degrees) than the Denali. (3 degrees over 19(16) first click and 21(1 second.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
BTW i cant put 18 in brackets, it turns into 'Cool Smiley'.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
great discussion,
skimottaret if you have a lack of flexion then having a soft boot will only allow you to collapse ove the front of it and incourage your heel to lift, as this happens the foot will externally rotate to compensate and try and keep the heel on the ground, as this happens the forefoot jams into the side of the shell and hurts lots, so IMO if you have a limited ankle flexion [which is not totally muscular or can be reduced] then stiffer boots are an absolute must, if the lack of motion is purely muscular then an exercise program and a heel lift may well suffice
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ski, yes it does help but i am looking at this in two ways. One from the perspective of what to tell a student if they ask "are my boots too tight/stiff" the other for my own skiing. I agree there is no one "correct" amount and feel that a good boot fitter is probably the best person to advise when they review someones needs. I really liked SZK's explanation of how he would determine the correct stiffness and boot type. But, most early stage peeps will be in rentals or have poorly fitted boots bought on the high street.
I was thinking back to my first lesson. I am self taught but after a few years was stuck at the intermediate plateau. A friend who was an expert skiier offered to take me out with his mate for an afternoon and they would give me some tips. Before meeting up with these experts I nervously cranked up the buckles on my rental boots so the boot would be as firm as possible as i had heard that racers and experts had ultra tight fitting stiff boots so that must help you ski better...
I met his mate who turned out to be a BASI trainer and within 20 metres of skiing off the chair lift stopped me and said my boots were too tight. He showed me the correct way to do up my buckles and I had for the first time fairly flexible boots. The difference was amazing... so i am with the WS in that most intermediates have their boots done up too tightly or are too stiff for their ability.
Rolling forward 10 years i have a reasonable level of flexability and balance for my age. I am quite happy with soft higher flex boots but would a stiffer boot help me get more control and performance? Lets assume my ankle flex is quite good, should i tend to use a higher flex boot that allows for a greater range of movement. Or does a stiffer boot set up for midpoint of flex give you better control through a restricted range of motion.
If stiff is "better" for control, how stiff is stiff? Is it down to personal preference when we get to a reasonable standard?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| GrahamN wrote: |
Sorry, but I think your perception is a bit out. Assuming 80cm from ankle to hip, and approximately equal length femur and tibia a 15cm drop would be 54 degrees at ankle and hip, and 108 degrees at the knee. You're in the zone for the 30cm drop though: 38 and 76 degrees respectively. Note that small drops are very insensitive to ankle flex angle though - those of us managing only 10cm still have 61 degrees angle at the ankle.
|
GrahamN, It's been over 20 years since I did o level maths. I'm guessing the 54 degrees was calculated from the
Cos of 32.5/40. If so the angle is less than it looked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
are my boots too tight/stiff"
|
Watch them ski. You'll soon see if the ankles are working. Most clients you'll see will suffer from a lack of flex - and probably ineffective and limited movement too. IMV the solution in a lesson is to get the best out the equipment they have. Most times people talk about tight boots it will be for comfort reasons
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Having changed my boots to a stiffer version for the first time in 5 years, I'll be interested to see how they go.
I use to equate stiff with uncomforatble but not anymore.... hopefully
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
JT, Remember, you have two forward lean positions and the tightness of the buckles around the shin will play a major part.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
SMALLZOOKEEPER,
Not been that successful clicking the lean forward in BOTH positions.. getting one is ok but I need to be a bit surer that I have clicked once or twice as there are no visual refs....
But atm, I have focused on getting the fit ok...all good so far.. right foot, toe area is a bit of a squeeze but better when you stand correctly. No worries so far, early days..
I hope to be in Chamonix on the 18th-19th Jan so will pop by and buy something..
How is the demo stock of skis going..???
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
First thing to check and correct is the ramp angle of your boots AND bindings....I am going to be saying this a lot here because this issue is fundamental to almost every problem I have ever seen when skiers feel unable to make certaing movements - I almost failed my grade 3 on this issue and it was entirely down to ramp angle - I changed it and the next morning the trainer was astounded - i was doing exactly the same thing as the day before, all i changed was the ramp angle of the boot and binding. Many of you will have to change the actual shell as some shells are not upright enough - it is different for each of you but go to someone that knows what they are doing - that excludes 90% of ski shops of course - and you will be very very happy !
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
First thing to check and correct is the ramp angle of your boots
|
how do you do that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Quote: |
First thing to check and correct is the ramp angle of your boots
|
how do you do that? |
You should go and see someone who knows what to do !! soli=utions for feet for example, footworks in Chamonix....I don't know if you all realise but racers boots have much less forard lean than commercial tourist boots..including the top range "race" boots...look uop amop angle on google and have a read...i can't explain it here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
ps...excuse my tuping again...i am trying to glue something together at the same time as chatting here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
and sniffing the glue?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What are you unsinuating ??? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| CEM wrote: |
great discussion,
skimottaret if you have a lack of flexion then having a soft boot will only allow you to collapse ove the front of it and incourage your heel to lift, as this happens the foot will externally rotate to compensate and try and keep the heel on the ground, as this happens the forefoot jams into the side of the shell and hurts lots, so IMO if you have a limited ankle flexion [which is not totally muscular or can be reduced] then stiffer boots are an absolute must, if the lack of motion is purely muscular then an exercise program and a heel lift may well suffice |
So, question here from a novice with less flex in my left ankle due to an old injury - if a stiffer boot is advantageous where there is less flex, does that mean I should adjust the setting on my boots to make that one stiffer than the other which has more flex in order to even things up, or at my level is it really irrelevant? (Nordica GTS8 Womens)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
krunchie63, snap! I've just glued some draught-stop stuff onto the window and the whole place stinks now - will have to give up Snowheading and take up something less difficult! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
; e.g. I was glad I wasn't trying it last night when the slope was quite sticky and the skis were hauling back and running forward completely at random. If you have a small 
.
It's true that most intermediate skiers have boots that are too stiff, and/or too tight. I prefer if they have softer boots and also not done up too tight so that they learn to stand on their 