 Poster: A snowHead
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There has been reference made in another thread to a longtime PSIA examiner from the Rocky Mountain division named Bob Barnes. To complicate matters there are actually two examiners in PSIA-RM named Bob Barnes. One is the ski school director at Winter Park. The person who wrote this piece is the Director of Training at Keystone.
Often this piece creates a good deal of lively debate. It is at the very least thought provoking. I hope you enjoy reading what the guy has to say. It was in response to a lively debate a few years ago at epicski.
"Skiing the "slow line fast" (when possible) is hardly a new idea. It has been perhaps the defining characteristic of expert skiing since the origins of the sport, and Georges Joubert, Warren Witherell, and many others have alluded to the notion long before it became a theme of my own teaching and skiing. I once thought that I'd coined the expression, but who really knows the true influences on our thinking? I submit that no one who has ever had contact with another human being has ever really had a completely original thought. All knowledge belongs to the collective wisdom of the human race.
That said, I think that anyone who embraces an idea, thinks about it, runs with it, explains it with new words or applies it in a new way, and adds a new twist to it, contributes something quite original and valuable. Thank you, Rusty! The curious person who pursues an idea with new questions, or from a new perspective, and the skeptic who tests the idea with honest debate, also deserve credit for original thinking! Thank you, Bud!
And I suspect that few others have emphasized the idea the way I have. Good skiing is skiing a slow enough line as fast as you can--when you can. "Slow enough" is a state of mind, of course, and "as fast as you can" is a question of skill, athleticism, snow conditions, equipment, and other variables. Anyone who can control direction CAN ski "a slow enough line," if he chooses to. And an expert can ski ANY line faster than one with less skill.
I don't make turns to control speed. Not on foot, not in my car, not on a bicycle, and not on skis, either! (Do you?) Indeed, I make turns on skis so that I don't HAVE to control speed. While they may sound similar on the surface, turning to control speed, and turning to prevent the need to control speed, couldn't be more different in their effects on skiing movements.
I try to ski a line that is "slow enough" that I can go as fast as I'm capable of, maximizing my glide and minimizing braking, without going any faster than I want. I maintain that if you want to make your very best turns, you must try to go FASTER all the time (not slower). Even STOPPING can be be a matter of going as fast as possible ... UP HILL. For any given direction, you're either going "as fast as you can," or you're doing something to slow yourself down. If you're NOT going as fast as you can at some point, then what are you doing? I call it braking. And if you don't ski "a slow enough line," then there are only two other possibilities: either you will go "too fast," or you will brake.
No, there's nothing wrong with braking, when you need to brake. Braking is a critically important skill in skiing, as in driving. It's an essential tool, but it's a bad habit! There are certainly many situations when you can't, or don't want to, make offensive turns, and where you must hit the brakes.
Unfortunately though, since most skiers think of their turns as a way to control (i.e. reduce) speed, and since they don't even think of MAKING a turn until that little voice says "that's fast enough--TURN," and since most ski instructors teach that turning is a way to slow down, and ski patrollers everywhere yell "slow down--make more turns," it's no wonder that most skiers are habitual "fast line slow" brakers. Few skiers habitually think of turns as offensive DIRECTION controllers, used to "go that way," rather than to "stop going this way." Since slippery skis feel immediately "out of control" to most beginners, and since the first sense of "control" most of us ever felt on skis came when we first learned to grip the planet again with a braking snowplow or hockey stop, it's no wonder most skiers associate braking with control, and "not braking" (i.e. gliding) with "out of control."
But experts don't. Experts love the sensation of gliding, and feel more "control" when their skis are skidding less. It's ironic, isn't it, that beginners (and most skiers) equate control with skidding, while experts often feel LESS control the more they're skidding. Why? Because to the expert, control means primarily control of LINE, and to most skiers, control means control of SPEED. If you can control line, AND if you ski "a slow enough line," then you will not need to control speed. That is what skiing "the slow (enough) line fast" is about.
Good turns ARE "fast." They will help you win races. They will never result from practicing "turning to slow down."
When you think about it, it's pretty hard to argue with the notion of "skiing a slow (enough) line fast," despite the reality that very, very few skiers actually do it, at any level. There are only two ways to slow down, of course: "direction" (going uphill) and "friction" (braking, or otherwise increasing resistance to gliding [includes falling down and other such "creative" activities]). Good skiers (usually) try to minimize friction, which means "going as fast as you can," and which necessitates skiing "a slow enough line." The ONLY other options are braking, or going too fast--or both!
It's obvious, but it's oh-so-rare. Watch skiers on any hill in the country, if not the rest of the world. The vast majority (99%) begin turns only when they need to control (reduce) speed. And their turns invariably begin with some movement that CAUSES their skis to start skidding. Skis don't just skid all by themselves, and even beginners are capable of initiating turns without pushing their tails into skids--watch them walk around on the flats. But to most skiers, it isn't a "turn" if it doesn't involve at least some skidding, some of that familiar, comforting scraping sensation that they associate with "control." True gliding ("going as fast as you can") just doesn't feel "right" to most skiers, so they push and twist their skis into a skid intentionally, whether they realize it or not. And, of course, that intentional speed control skid is a skid OFF their line, a LOSS of control of direction, making skiing "a slow enough line" (or any precise line, for that matter) more difficult. It's a rare skier who doesn't habitually ski too fast a line, as evidenced by most skiers' unwaveringly skidded turn initiations. It's not a lack of skill. And it's not because the movements of good skiing are counter-intuitive. It's because the INTENT of good skiing--the intent to ski the slow line fast--the requisite desire to GAIN speed when you start a turn--is extremely uncommon!
I should mention that it is an oversimplification to say that "the slow (enough) line" means "completing turns." It CAN involve completing turns, and on a smooth "tilted parking lot" groomed run, it would require that. But in real skiing, it simply means skiing any line that controls your speed for you, whatever that may involve. Using little rises and hills, the sides of gullies, going up moguls--any of these could create a "slow enough line," and if the pitch is gentle enough, even going straight downhill could be "slow enough," for some people. The slow line simply means using the mountain to do your work. It means playing with gravity, rather than fighting against it.
And I must concur 100% with Rusty that the "slow line fast" may well involve wedges. Contrary to common belief, and contrary to the droning of the "direct parallel" adherents, a wedge is not always a defensive move. (Nor is "parallel" necessarily offensive.) It's a question of movements and of intent. If a turn occurs as a result of the intent to direct the tips of the skis INTO the turn, rather than the intent to twist one or both tails OUT, it is an offensive, direction-control turn. True contemporary wedge turns and wedge christies are simply a highly likely outcome of these offensive movements, at a low level of skill and speed. Even a highly skilled, habitually offensive, skier will tend to produce a small wedge at the beginning of turns at a low enough speed (slow enough line). This wedge is not intentional, and it's not used for braking. The intent, as for experts, is to "GO that way," rather than to "stop going this way." And a wedge often results. Efforts to avoid a wedge at these speeds almost invariably result in poor movements, including twisting the tails of the skis into braking skids.
While the wedge can be used for braking, naturally, contemporary wedge turns and wedge christies are purely offensive turns. They are progress milestones that lie squarely in the direct path to parallel skiing! Effective instructors develop the offensive movements and the "slow line fast" intent of great skiing from the beginning."
I'll bet if anyone is interested we can lure Bob over here to discuss the topic!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sounds very similar to what Mike M was saying,,, doesn't it gang? Like I was saying in my first post in that other thread,,, very common thinking now in PSIAville, the whole, "I don't make turns to control speed" thing,,, and Bob had a good deal to do with that (far as I can tell). Rusty Guy, , I suspect this piece will experience similar challenges in garnering acceptance here, considering what Mike just went through.
That said,,, what Bob is trying to promote with this, same as Mike was, is good. Providing skiers alternatives to tail tossing, pivoting, sliding, skidding, edge checking as their sole means of speed control is a worthy pursuit. And like Bob says, coaches have been doing that for years,,, nothing really new. It's how we coaches have always taken skiers to the next level. What Bob HAS done here that IS new is simply introduce a different mental cue to help nudge along that skill development process. Personally, I'm not a huge fan, because I just can't get past the conflict between the ideas of using line to manage speed,,, and condemning the idea of turning to manage speed,,, when the nature of the turn is what dictates a line. It just makes no sense to me. And honestly, I've never really needed to use such statements to get my students to the place Bob is trying to go. But if he likes it, and it works for him on the snow with his students, then more power to him.
Thanks, Rusty Guy, , for introducing Bob and his thoughts to the folks here. He and I have had our debates over the years on Epic,,, but we've always agreed on more things then we conflicted on. He's a dedicated pro.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'll toss out an idea. Like others. not orignal, something i gleaned from another ski instructor. I'd love to attribute, however, i can't remember!
In any case........we have two options to control speed-friction and direction.
I'll expand that to suggest we might be able to enjoy;
1) friction
2) direction
3) a blend of both
as an aside, i will say i actually came up with an original idae last year. well.......it was based on something i saw presented by a trainer from an obscure ski area north of boulder.
it actually has been adopted by a couple of trainers at winter park.
it is the idea of;
too much
too soon
too fast
i'll explain if someone wants to hear.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I always like to hear new thoughts, Rusty! Please explain...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FastMan, definitely.
What makes this a more thoughtful, and less offensive (in the more "English" English sense) piece is that he gets his caveats and optionality in first. He does start getting more evangelical as he goes on though, and that's where I'd agree more with FastMan than him. What I do disagree with though is the concept that skidding necessarily involves a LOSS of control. Watch an expert doing "falling leaf" manouevres varying the angle of fall, or even pirouettes on flat skis. Are they showing a loss of control? Doesn't look like it to me. What is true though is that it's a lower speed manouevre. I wonder whether this anti-skidding bandwagon is all a side-effect of instructors/trainers all having some degree of racing background - as in that context a skidded turn is frequently a bad turn.
| Rusty Guy wrote: |
we have two options to control speed-friction and direction.
I'll expand that to suggest we might be able to enjoy;
1) friction
2) direction
3) a blend of both |
Interesting thought, and certainly highlights the choices we make. However, as I pointed out on the other thread, in the absence of friction, changing direction does nothing other than get you back to the height you started (conservation of energy). What the "slow line fast" or direction control does do is allow you to make a longer path for a given height loss. Hence you are giving the minimum amount of friction you can get your skis to experience the maximum path length over which it can work. So I'd rather recouch that as
| Quote: |
| We have one option to gain speed - loss of height. When we lose that height we also have one option on how to control speed - friction. We can make use of that skillfully by either changing the amount at any given time, or the distance over which we travel. |
I'd possibly agree that this is not necessarily better in a teaching environment - but it at least has the advantage of accuracy  .
I can make a guess at what yous idea is, but would be very interested to hear it. One realted mantra that our coach quotes frequently (and attributes to Killy) is something like "act as slowly as you can consitent with skiing as fast as you are".
(Anyway - must leave now to go skiing)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| condemning the idea of turning to manage speed,,, when the nature of the turn is what dictates a line. It just makes no sense to me. |
if you are using terrain to control speed, you'll choose a specific line to use that terrain, so you'll need to use appropriate and different 'turns' to ski that line. Are you not are then using 'turns' to control your speed ?
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| Rusty Guy wrote: |
as an aside, i will say i actually came up with an original idae last year. well.......it was based on something i saw presented by a trainer from an obscure ski area north of boulder.
it actually has been adopted by a couple of trainers at winter park.
it is the idea of;
too much
too soon
too fast
i'll explain if someone wants to hear. |
Sounds as though it might have something to do with this topic: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=28265
Please do expand, Rusty.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Little Tiger: Yes, the tail toss version is the one being discussed. I see where there has been a misunderstanding by people reading both Bob's and my threads. Neither Bob, not I, nor any instructor/coach who suggests the concept of speed control through line discounts the usefulness of controlled skidding as a tactic. It is the use of skidding (and, usually, accompanying body rotation) as a default technique to make every turn, even on gentle or moderate groomers, that is being addressed, i.e., using skis as brakes to avoid going down the hill and defensively twisting them, which, as in a car which is skidding, eliminates the ability to steer. Tactical skidding is not being dismissed or discounted in any way. Even in most "carved" turns, there is usually some degree of skidding going on, otherwise the turn radius is totally determined by the sidecut of the skis. The skier would just be a passive passenger (and, yes, degree of tipping the skis on their edges is a factor also).
Rusty's "Too much, too soon, too fast" sounds very useful as a caveat!
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 15-10-07 1:56; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm really struggling to see who this stuff is aimed at - probably there are lessons for everyone but the first post asserts that 99% of people turn to control speed which seems far fetched to me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger, mike_m, OK, point taken. This is one reason instructors I've had have started to use "scrape", as "skid" has become such a dirty word and "scrape" is much more "PC" (and they've actually said on the hill this is the reason for the change in terminology). Unfortunately I tend to be of the view that if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...it's a duck. There's also a world of difference between a manoeuvre executed skillfully and one executed badly - my basic objection to broad brush rubbishing of techniques of harnessing friction as a concept is that it stops people developing skillful applications (and also promotes a misunderstanding of what's actually going on).
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| ... instructors I've had have started to use "scrape", as "skid" has become such a dirty word... |
For me this was a helpful difference in terminology. First heard it a few years ago on a Snoworks course and I was a bit confused by the term, but after it was explained and demonstrated it did help me to think about the difference between an uncontrolled sideways slide and something which is much more purposeful (and useful for some situations).
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I'm really struggling to see who this stuff is aimed at - probably there are lessons for everyone but the first post asserts that 99% of people turn to control speed which seems far fetched to me. |
i only have a second and will try to post at some length this evening, however, this hit the nail on the head for me.
I talk about this a great deal in bump lessons and describe an "X-Y" axis. I talk about moving down the hill as opposed to across the hill. I'm not necessarily talking about where the skis are pointed!
fatbob sometimes we turn to control speed. point em downhill we go faster, point them at any angle away from the fall line we go slower. we can also simply turn to go somewhere or to avoid something. in that case speed is ancillary.
I do a drill with students in small bumps a la a falling leaf. They can make one "turn" or a 180 degree rotation of their skis during a run down thirty small bumps AND they must;
1) seek to stay on the "x" axis or as i term it go south as opposed to the "Y" axis or east-west.
and
2) they cannot exceed 6 mph or let's say 10kph
They are using friction. they learn to slip/slide in bamps (my term for baby bumps). over bamps. on the sides of bamps. they learn to balance and to seek the front or back of their skis. they just get to turn the skis once.
This is a working component of the "too much, too soon, too fast idea".
I have this sense that folks come out west, see a 1500 foot bump rum and feel they have to make a million fast turns.
they don't need to. the opposite of too much, too soon, too fast is "less, later, slower"!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I fall into the camp of not quite knowing where this is supposed to take us. And anyway, it is clearly flawed since it overlooks the POWER SIDESLIP 
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FAQ
I like to think about the 'whoosh' through the lower part of the turn. Many people try to avoid it and think they're doing something wrong when they get this feeling. Once they know it's supposed to be there they often feel much happier about it.
