 Poster: A snowHead
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http://www.snsc.demon.co.uk/news/snscnews0709281.htm 
Bully-boy BASI seems to have pushed and pushed the home nations and they've just crossed the line.
So,
- back to CI and ASSI
- what of exemption from BASI Trainee/Level 1?
- what of conversion across to BASI Level 1
- 2 separate race/development coach schemes, one home nations and one BASI, both based on CSCF?
- any equivalence across these (and indeed CSCF itself!)?
- the home nations have often not been very inclusive; will BASI use that against them?
- individual artificial slope preferences and exclusions?
Good or bad?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 28-09-07 13:03; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oh dear, more confusion for people who are trying to enter the qualification system that operates across these different bodies 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Very interesting indeed and it seems BASI have now rubbed SSS up the wrong way after initially seeming to have them on board. Seems to me that this leaves both BASI and SSS with egg on their faces whereas SSE have had their stance justified.
In my observation BASI have played a very political game over the last little while, trying to pick off SSS, then SSE and persuade them to go along with their new award. I've been told that whilst in negotiations with SSE they have tried to lure key people over to their side, and by so doing I'd suggest weaken the position of SSE. I am aware of one case where they've tried to get a top SSE coach to join their scheme before any agreement between the two organisations but said individual was so shocked at what they viewed as the low standard of the BASI award that she/he decided to turn down their offer.
All of this has now backfired and it appears that we're now left with two competing schemes but at least I guess we know what the deal is now and we're going to have SSE/SSS/SSW ASSI competing with BASI Level 1 for the forseeable future.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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To a non-racing non-instructor outside observer who has watched the threads about BASI and about the whole merger issue with stunned incomprehension.
It cannot be beyond the whit of man to have a single representative body for UK snowsports and a single body (not necessarily the same body) accrediting teachers/instructors/coaches, especially since we live on an Island with relatively little snow. Do some heads need to be knocked together? Is this 4 bald men fighting over a comb? How does this make things any more comprehensible for the "skier on the Clapham omnibus" ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Its the SSE "Coaching Conference" tomorrow. No doubt full details then.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
To a non-racing non-instructor outside observer who has watched the threads about BASI and about the whole merger issue with stunned incomprehension.
It cannot be beyond the whit of man to have a single representative body for UK snowsports and a single body (not necessarily the same body) accrediting teachers/instructors/coaches, especially since we live on an Island with relatively little snow. Do some heads need to be knocked together? Is this 4 bald men fighting over a comb? How does this make things any more comprehensible for the "skier on the Clapham omnibus" ? |
ABSOLUTELY! I'm a skier often to be found on a Clapham omnibus and am totally baffled! Must be a real b*gger for anyone wanting to get a decent qualification. I love your bald men analogy, BTW. 
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it's not just someone wanting to get a qualification who will be confused. someone trying to work out how qualified a prospective teacher is will be too
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Will SSE, SSS and SSW now agree a common ASSI as well as coaching qualification? Will they merge financially? Could they take the instructor qualification any further, or will the ISIA and EuroGroup only recognise one member nation? How about the IVSI? Or are they just playing hard to get? 
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It strikes me the announcements today are suggesting that there will be a common ASSI across the UK but I just wonder if SSS are going to be happy loosing their courses based in England because that's what this implies. Mind you they may already have lost them to BASI who seem to be running Level 1 at most of the venues in England that SSS used.
It seems to me that we actually have a more confusing situation now in as far as formerly there was just the ASSI (and CI) run by the various home nations with BASI taking up the reigns after that. Now we have the situation where we have the ASSI (seemingly to be run on a UK wide basis) and the BASI Level 1 in direct competition.
If I was one of the people who has already done a conversion or who has passed Level 1 (perhaps because they believed it was going to be the only ongoing qualification) I'd be pretty brassed off and asking for my membership fee back at the very least.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It sounds like the slope operators are going to be in a win win position could determine the final outcome. At the moment I understand that they have to pay to run courses but now I wonder if the tables could be turned.
After all if you are a course provider but no one is hosting your courses, life is going to be bad.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't care what BASI do, as long as they find a way to stop old folk passing into the system. Most of them should be in a home, from what I've seen.
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And what age do you class as being old Tim?
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You know it makes sense.
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Copy of email received today from Snowsports Scotland.
Home Nations combine to develop United Kingdom Snowsports Award Scheme
The status of the Snowsports’ instructing, coaching and leading qualifications has been the subject of considerable discussion recently.
Snowsport Scotland is pleased to announce that a way forward has been agreed for our existing and potential members that will ensure all their needs are met whether on snow or artificial slopes, beginners or high performance athletes, schools or clubs!
Snowsport Scotland, England and Wales are collaborating to develop one UK wide coaching pathway in line with the recommendations laid down by the guidelines of the UK Coaching Certificate. The guiding principle of the new scheme is that it meets the needs of its users and whatever the level, the individual qualifications are fit for purpose. Once launched, each home nation will organise its own catalogue and timetable of courses, the qualifications will be badged as the UK award, a UK calendar of training & development opportunities will be published and made available to everyone involved in Snowsports within the UK.
This new set of qualifications will be launched in May 2008. The table below is an example of what the pathway might look like and how existing qualifications might slot into different levels. Please note, this is an example - not the definitive product!
Level
Operation Range
1
Assist more qualified coaches, delivering aspects of coaching sessions, normally under direct supervision club instructor
2
Prepare for, deliver and review coaching/leading session(s) ASSI/ASBI/ASL
3
Plan, implement, analyse and revise annual coaching programmes APC1
4
Design, implement and evaluate the process and outcome of long-term/specialist coaching programmes APC2
5
Generate, direct and manage the implementation of cutting-edge coaching solutions and programmes New qualification
Although we will be working hard on our new pathway, there is still demand for training courses and examinations in the meantime so it is our intention to schedule a number of our original courses including ASL, APC, ASSI and ASBI (including refreshers).
N.B. for the time being there is no change to the status of your existing qualification!
Please go to our website: www.snowsportscotland.org to register your interest.
For further information please contact;
Jane Harvey
Chief Executive Snowsport Scotland
Tel. 0131 445 4151
Email. info@snowsportscotland.org
28 September 2007
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It looks like BASI and the Home Nations are now in direct competition, L1 vs. ASSI. It's a shame the home nations didn't get it together years ago to offer just one ASSI qualification years ago. If they did they would have been in a much stronger position now and BASI would probably never seen the need to offer the L1. This seems a last ditch attempt to keep control. I would think the gloves will now come off and BASI will push very hard to convert as many as possible away from the ASSI towards the L1. Probably putting a time limit on the conversions from ASSI to L1, to encourage sooner rather than later conversions. It will probably lead to no exemptions for ASSI for progression to the BASI L2 award, further strenghening the demand for L1 as a pathway as against ASSI.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Its all just a bit Popular People's Front of Judea isn't it?
"Splitters!"
Really as a non-instructor this political bollux seems hillarious and something that would push me into the welcoming arms of CSIA or whoever if I wanted to go through a system. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, snap
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, thats the danger, bASI and the HNGB are playing a silly game here. This will drive more people to looking for a qualification with out all the political crap. Its a home goal for the UK and a score for CSIA. Mugs the lot of them!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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roga, Yep, I was initially told by someone in the know that BASI had effectively "taken over" SSS! but it seems each had understood a different thing. You could just imagine it - facing each other across the table, no explicit statements, just veiled implicit threats!  Only now have the implications been realised, options sought, alliances forged, resolve been steeled!
It's surely up to the slope operators which entry level instructor course they choose. They might decide to stick with the BASI Level 1 for its direct path to higher level qualifications. I'd guess that there's a good chance BASI will withdraw any exemptions from BASI Level1 and demand of ASSIs at least a conversion day and 35 hours ski school experience before being granted equivalence. And it'll be time limited. It may also be that slopes may revert to club instructor, for the entry level, for its accessibility and inclusivity, then encourage BASI Level1 thereafter.
Good point concerning early adopters and I wonder how many have converted 'cos you'd be right that they were led to believe something that isn't now going to be true.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 28-09-07 20:14; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother,
| Quote: |
| Is this 4 bald men fighting over a comb? |
On the surface I'm afraid it does have a little of that feel about it, doesn't it? However it's easy to forget just how active the dry slope racing, coaching and instructing scene is, not to mention the long history of Scottish alpine skiing and the fact that I think we'll increasingly find that with easier access to Europe and relatively lots of holiday time, British skiers may well have as much snow time as skiers from alpine nations who don't actually live near the foothills.
david@mediacopy, yes, the SSE Coaching Conference, this'll be interesting - there'll be representatives from many of the stakeholders, some who hold international qualifications looking for recognition from a British body - might've been no-one who'd oblige, now there may be two!
You're quite right - I think the slope operators will be amongst the winners out of this. It'll be their choice. They could run both, and play one off against the other. They could get together and do deals and dictate some terms.
Spyderman,
| Quote: |
| ...It's a shame the home nations didn't get it together years ago to offer just one ASSI qualification years ago. If they did they would have been in a much stronger position now and BASI would probably never seen the need to offer the L1. ... |
Absolutely right! I wonder just how many times this thought has crossed the minds of people directly involved over the last few months! And indeed will they even now be able to do it!
Edited for clarity. Original posts Fri Sep 28, 07 20:00ish
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Why do we assume BASI is the bad guy in this???
ALL the bodies involved agreed that a single training organisation should deliver instructor training. They start the process and reluctantly SSS and SSE start to come on board.
THEN SSS gets a new CEO and SSE's CEO leaves, THe new bods in the hot seat notice that their revenue from training is going away, what do you know they then decide to make a complete U turn. BASI perhaps was a bit of a bully but they are the logical choice to be the single pathway for instructor training AND ACTUALLY TRIED TO MAKE SOMETHING POSITIVE HAPPEN.
I blame the heads of the home nations for being protectionsist and short sighted. they are:
Jane Harvey
Chief Executive Snowsport Scotland
Tel. 0131 445 4151
Email. info@snowsportscotland.org
Stewart Smith
Chairman Snowsport England
Tel. 0121 501 2314
Email. chair@snowsportengland.org.uk
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I haven't got a clue who is to blame for the situation and it doesn't really matter at the end of the day but I do know that a number of respected figures in SSE were, with reservations, open to talking and going along to see what BASI were up to but came away with massive reservations about the low level of the BASI award. I was also told by a number of people that it was set so low in order to get as many people through the doors as possible to generate revenue for BASI.
As for arguments about who controlled what I haven't got a clue but I do know that BASI were playing a very strategic and political game in a way that seemed to me designed to control whatever outcomes there were - this of course has now backfired on them!
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roga, lower than the CI badge? Initially we heard that level 1 was going to be pitched between CI and ASSI then it sounded like the ASSI level. perhaps after concerns by SSE.
All the parties signed up and paid for the Modernisation review, it wasnt BASI driving that from what i understand.. In the end although BASI was recognised as the obvious candidate the home nations dont want to lose the revenue.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Correct me if I'm wrong - but wasn't the initial reason for Modernisation something to do with government funding?
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Makes me sooooooooooooooo glad I've finished all the exams and no longer pay any of these idiots!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Was it a carefully considered or snap decision?
If carefully considered, why were SSS members and potential new members pointed in the direction of BASI for their entry level qualifications or renewals in the form of a L1 conversion course?
SSS are, at this time, still advertising:
"...BASI are now responsible for running the following awards:
Artificial Slope Ski Instructor – now to be known as the BASI Level 1 Instructor Award (Alpine)
Artificial Slope Snowboard Instructor - now to be known as the BASI Level 1 Instructor Award (Snowboard).
For information on these courses please see www.basi.org.uk. "
I wonder how many Tutors have been giving an informed introduction to the modernisation of UK snowsports to attendees on L1 courses in recent weeks.
BASI, it appears was not a company formed for profit. Can the same be said for SSE, SSS?
Do SSS, SSE now exist to promote the best interests of their developing and currently qualified members?
Were any members of those organisations consulted over any proposed backtracking or termination of the modernisation project?
How much harm have the actions of SSE and SSS done to the reputation of UK Snowsports?
So what are we gonna do now - shoot ourselves in the other foot - or tell the rest of the world jokes about the reputation of British Snowsports organisations?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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BASI are (supposedly) a non-profit making organisation ...
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| skimottaret wrote: |
roga, lower than the CI badge? Initially we heard that level 1 was going to be pitched between CI and ASSI then it sounded like the ASSI level. perhaps after concerns by SSE.
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The BASI L1 level is being assessed at exactly the same level as SSS ASSI. That is straight from the horse's mouth.
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You know it makes sense.
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| easiski wrote: |
| BASI are (supposedly) a non-profit making organisation ... |
If you look at their accounts they are hardly 'Non-profit making' 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Really as a non-instructor this political bollux seems hillarious and something that would push me into the welcoming arms of CSIA or whoever if I wanted to go through a system. |
As an instructor (BASI and ESC), this political bollox pushes me (and many others) into continuing to recommend the welcoming arms of the CSIA. But at the end of the day, it depends on what your employer recognises.
In our ski club we've had more people qualifying via CSIA than BASI or ESC for about the last five years - a trend that I forsee only continuing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Spyderman, I spoke to a horse today... a couple of them infact. It's neigh good for Snowsports.
Thoroughbreds, treated like mushrooms at a donkey farm.
Spyderman, BASI L1 is pitched, as Spyderman says, at SSS ASSI standards with a few extra progressive drills for the candidate to take away and work on as necessary. The ASSI is the next logical progression from CI.
What would be the point a CI attending a course that doesn't progress to the next stage (unless a pure training course). Or, for that matter, current ASSI's attending a course that's pitched at a lower level than their current qualification?
SSE have the CI as an entry level teaching qualification. That's fine, it gets someone started in snowsports education. SSS have ASSI as the entry level. Standards for both, I see like the rings on a dartboard. CI on the outer rim, ASSI just inside the outer ring. Each level, in theory tightens standards.
So if SSS and SSE could't agree on things before - what hope is there now. Then again, it would apear that there was a convenient change of mind over modernisation.
May BASI continue to develop and improve the British Snowsports education system. Afterall, it's BASI that overseas instructors have heard of.
Do SSE or SSS have a representation at Interski?
SSE and SSS appear to have some connection to IVSI, but are they currently maintaining standards to IVSI minimum standards - namely within the standards of ADC.
SSS APC standards are high. Can't comment on the SSE version.
The modernisation was designed to get us all on a common playing field, kicking the ball in the same direction; being measured by the same standards. I sincerley hope SSS and SSE reconsider their decision to ditch the modenisation in such an outright and apparently underhand way Or is it about the fear of loss of revenue?
I apologise for the lengthy post but the sudden about turn by the home nations has me, like many others, mystified and searching for answers. I'm left wondering how many folk considering entry to any of the UK snowsports education systems are likely to be put off due to the apparent hostility between organisations. As a result, we may lose potential memberships to popular organisations such as PSIA, CSIA, CSCF etc. Both organisations promote a positive, friendly and professional image.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, BASI use funds raised through membership/courses to represent members ( you included ) on the national and international scene. The fact that BASI are now a well respected world body of ski teachers is down to the hard work and investment in representing YOUR needs as a professional. This cost money!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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elbrus,
I don't think easiski is a member of BASI anymore?
Think I get where you're coming from though - BASI gets a lot of stick from people. It's easy to criticise from the outside - I say if you want to change things then get involved!! The AGM was today, any member who wants to can stand for election.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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elbrus, Exactly, the last BASI newsletter detailed the accounts postion in a very detailed and open fashion and BASI are very clear that they wish to have a positive balance sheet to ensure the long term development of the association. pistedude, sorry but a company can make money to strengthen its balance sheet and not return a profit to its owners/stakeholders.
The alternative is a weak, financially unstable organisation that becomes ruled by short term fiscal issues. Sound like anyone being discussed here?
Personally if this is going to war I think BASI should increase it's PR effort to ensure it becomes the recognised as the ONLY professional instructor training body that is internationally recognised and can train people to teach in a mountain environment. I could be wrong but does SSS have an instructor qualification valid in a mountain environment?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, But as a non-member I don't have any say in how BASI attempts to replace the existing courses.
You also asked what had prompted Modernization. I don't think it was just down to loss of funding. Fiona had found the lack of an overall "brand" to be a problem when she was at SSGB.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Personally if this is going to war I think BASI should increase it's PR effort to ensure it becomes the recognised as the ONLY professional instructor training body that is internationally recognised and can train people to teach in a mountain environment. I could be wrong but does SSS have an instructor qualification valid in a mountain environment? |
Ok, how would you win over those of us who do not agree with the way that BASI have modified the CSCF courses ?
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| rjs wrote: |
beanie1,
You also asked what had prompted Modernization. I don't think it was just down to loss of funding. |
No, it was what made common sense to all the parties involved in snow sports, coaching and instruction in the UK.
It wasn't until the loss of revenue and funding (and loss of the head people at SSS and SSE) happened that the various quangos took their current parochial view.
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rjs, BASI shouldnt have "to win you over", if you feel that CSCF offers a better programme take a CSCF course then, it is your choice.
Seems to me that BASI are being open minded and trying to use best practice and not reinvent the wheel completely when developing their coach training courses.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 29-09-07 22:27; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, I won't have to now, I can also do the SSS/SSE equivalent.
You added the second part after I had replied. Compare the content of the BASI coaching courses and the CSCF ones, they are not the same.
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rjs, sorry our posts crossed while i was typing. My point being is that the BASI course shouldnt be a carbon copy of the canadian one, what would be the point of that when you can just take the canadian course.
You said you are not a BASI member, so why is it an issue to you what they offer if you are not in the BASI training system. Take the SSS or canadian one then if you feel it is better suited for your needs.... What point are you arguing?
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FAQ
