 Poster: A snowHead
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Just wondering what you guys think?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In my opinion, I would say that Instructing is the teaching of the basic techniques, where Coaching is for refining or specialising i.e. racing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I always viewed it as a difference in instruction style....
Coaches have an ongoing relationship with the student that allows for a slow consistent development of technique to occur...
Instructors are often in the delightful situation of having someone who has spent 10-20 years refining their self taught bad habits and now wants them to "fix me" in 1-2 hours  (Like where do I start.... I skied ina group lesson with a couple of "old school" skiers that had never shed their old technique... instructor was in hysterics trying to coach me while teaching them how to use a "new" ski)
My instructors always told me they taught me like a coach not an instructor... I.e. I had "coaching" not instruction due to my commitment to working on my skiing...
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I think coaches are for competitive sports and instructors are for anybody. But what do I know, especially on BZK? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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IMO...
An instructor has a set of physical techniques to impart to you, usually conveying these by example. For this reason an instructor tends to need to be technically better than his students.
A coach will focus more upon what you, personally need to move your abilty / performance on.
This will often include instruction in technique but may not specifically. Instead the focus might be on fitness, confidence, drive or desire to improve or win etc.
Unlike instructors, coaches may not necessarily have a greater technical ability than their students but will have a talent for understanding 'how they tick'.
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Hurtle, when I had forced treatment to attempt to make me a tennis player it was called "coaching"... all the small kids had coaching.... I don't think anyone saw it as competitive.... However you would never have dreamed of turning up for just 1-2 hours once or twice a year... You turned up each week for X weeks....
Ditto golf .... I think the guy at teh golf club was advertising coaching... and the surf instructor I skied with each week back home was a coach and none of us could even turn consistently(well my bottom turn was not bad in the end)...
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little tiger, I'm sure that, as is customary, you are right. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Instructing is what you get in ski school. Coaching is how you get to the resort.
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Well I think that instruction is just that - instruction. It often does not contain much element of correction or teaching - it's just 'instruction' "this is how you do x now lets see you do it". OTOH coaching is definitely a longer term thing, there is a much more personal element (but it need not be competitive), and correction, exercises and help in correcting faults. In the case of competitors, then obviously there will be elements of strategy too. Teaching is in between the two I think.
Instruction is 12 in a class in a row - coaching is a small number together or 1-1. I really dislike the term ski instructor, because that's not what I do and I think it's vaguely offensive! BASI used to class their grades: Assistant Ski Instructor (3); Ski Instructor (2) and Ski Teacher (1) - I always thought that was about right. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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'Coaching' is when you connect with and advance your client without thought for your wallet, 'Instructing' is an effort, that for whatever reason, falls short of 'Coaching'. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't think you can be coached until you've learned the basic instructions and that's where the instructor comes in. I've still need an instructor - I hope I will still be able to have the same chap I've had for the last 2 years next year, but he did tell me that he was thinking of packing the winter job in to do something else this coming winter so I may get someone new  This year he told me that he had even done some special revision in ski terms in English because he knew I was coming back to see him!
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Correction: these words mean whatever anyone wants them to mean.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hurtle, ohh, that's deep. Agreed. Back to the bar, whoo hoo. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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About £150 per week.
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Poster: A snowHead
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parlor, Nuf said, Your Beers' at the bar, Bitch.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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To perhaps over simplify, I think an instructor shows you how to do something and a coach tells you how to do it. 
Back to the bar.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would say that Masque, Megamum and easiski have it all about right, but it was admin who actually nailed it.
But it's probably not universal. In other fields, such as Driving, (Sky-)Diving, Sailing you seem always to have an "instructor" - although I never got beyond intermediate/recreational in any of those. In tennis you seem to always have a "coach". In music, even top level professionals at the beginning of their careers (and some even into mid-career) still refer to those assisting them as "teachers", although "coach" would be used for e.g. an orchestral section (so this would probably run counter to admin's example, teacher would be addressing individual needs but coach would be addressing those of the group).
FWIW, I've seen easiski make the distinction between "instructor" and "teacher" before, but think it's a bit contrived and I doubt anyone less anal than those of us in this forum would know the difference either. I don't think I've ever heard the term "Ski Teacher" used by anyone except her, and in the name of that top level qualification (which I'd also never heard of until about 18 months ago, well after coming on here). I would have thought the obvious name would be something like Advanced or Senior Ski Instructor. The distinction she makes between the "Instructor" and "Teacher" methodology I would just class as "Bad Instruction" and "Good Instruction". I've not always had good instruction, but fortunately I've never had what she classes as merely "Instruction".
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I ask as the terms seem to be used interchangeably (?) in some discussions, yet on one hand I know of a coach who would feel miffed if his teaching was described as 'instructing' and on the other hand I've heard a very senior instructor suggest that there is no difference between the two.
So just wondering what the consensus is here.
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coaching is a long term development of a performer (recreational or performance). A coach will not only develop the performers technical skills, he/she will also develop the other strands such as psychological and physical. Often (but not always) coaches work on an amateur basis, week in and week out with their trainees. Coaches take you on long journeys! That also true of the ones with wheels.
Instructing is normally a short term relationship with a "client". Thats to say you are probably paid and offering your instructing skills in a commercial sense. Instructors probably are not developing you over a long term basis. ie you pay an instructor for 2 hours, they prescribe some changes and offer feedback. You go away, and maybe will hire the same instructor next year. The relationship was short term
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Coaching is more likely to lead to how's your father.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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elbrus, Well, that nails it - I'm not an instructor!!! I'm definitely a coach.
GrahamN, the problem is: ski instructor suggests, immediately, large groups and someone bawling at them without any actual 'teaching' or 'coaching' element - ie: no personal involvement. Both myself and Euan (I'll take his name in vain here), definitely have the long term for the skier in mind, even if they only come for 1 lesson. There's also the question of doing a bit extra with boot fitting, or other contacts etc.
I do think though, that a lot of people are disappointed in class ski school precisely because they are expecting to be taught, when all they're paying for is instruction. 
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Does coaching also suggest that the person being coached knows where they want to get too, but needs help in achieving that - and that there is a more complex and adult learning relationship? (not necessarily the one bh1 suggests ) whereas instructing is more about the instructor having control of both the goal and the way of getting there?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stoatsbrother, at least one coach started our relationship at the end of my "ski lesson" with "if you are going to work with me" and then proceeded to tell me what the terms where I was under... I am pretty sure he had far higher goals for me than I ever set for myself at that point in time... It is only very recently that my goals have started to get closer to those my coaches would see for me... (Note that I use coach here because that is how I see the relationship, in general speech I use instructor because very few recreational skiers understand coach as anything other than competitive. My friends back home would understand coach - but they have backgrounds in other sports as well as skiing and have longer term views for their skiing than a week or two holiday)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A teacher is someone who teaches
An instructor is someone who instructs
A coach is how you get from A to B without driving your car!
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| easiski wrote: |
| the problem is: ski instructor suggests, immediately, large groups and someone bawling at them without any actual 'teaching' or 'coaching' element - ie: no personal involvement. |
It doesn't have those connotations for me.
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You know it makes sense.
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laundryman, me neither - probably because many lessons over recent years have been group lessons in North America with just 2 or 3 punters and highly motivated instructors.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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They mean the same thing, just in different contexts.
Instructors inform, educate, teach and train beginners, intermediates and advanced.
Coaches train experts.
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Poster: A snowHead
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IMHO, coaching as opposed to instructing also involves developing an awareness in the coachee/performer as to what and why they are doing something. Although the coachee may have an expectation as to the outcome of a particular training period, he/she may also be on a voyage of guided discovery with the coach facillitating development (as opposed to merely telling it how it's supposed to be) in the direction of a desired outcome that appears as a "Eureka" moment for the coachee.
Also; a unique relationship develops between coach and coachee. A coach is available long after an Instructor has clocked off.
However, coaching techniques can also be used by ski instructors, providing they can identify client needs matched with learning type. Some people just need to be instructed, others need to understand why they need to do something. Just show and tell doesn't always cut it with a client. Better to develop and encourage a clients expectations for future development than say, "that's it for now, we'll think of something else to do next time."
As a sportsperson improves in skill and understanding, he/she takes on more and more of the responsibility for his/her own development with the coach facilitating, advising, encouraging.
Hope this helps those in their journey of discovery as to the difference between Coach and Instructor.
Now, about this ski teacher thing.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've been a "coach" for a long time. Generally, a coach is thought of as a person who trains racers, and an instructor as one who teaches 1-2 hour lessons to random recreational skiers. But for me it goes deeper than that. I see the difference more in the intensity of the relationship between teacher and student. Coaches work with the same students over a long duration of time, and are able to implement a comprehensive training plan that fosters major advancement in the skill level of the student. Instructors generally have minimal time with each individual student. They don't have the luxury of time with the student that the coach does.
Last season I had the opportunity to work with a recreational student 4 days a week, 8 hours a day, for an entire month. Though this person was not a racer, I still consider the work I did with him "coaching" because of the intensity level of the training. This person, prior to our coming together, had only 7 days of skiing under his belt. Because of the amount of one on one time we had to work together, I was able to pursue a very broad based skill development plan. By the end of our time together the improvement was amazing. He went from big, ugly rotary turn linked traverses on green/blue runs, to ripping arc to arc carves down blacks, skiing the steeps, bumps, and powder, developing good balance/rotary/edging/transition versatility,,, basically advancing further in a month than the majority of recreational skiers do in a lifetime. That is what teaching within the "coaching" venue provides the opportunity to do. The type of improvement it offers the coach the opportunity to affect. After "coaching" I'd find it very difficult to "instruct". The same level of reward potential just doesn't exist.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Elizabeth B, Exactly, but lots of peeps on this thread clearly expect their instructors to teach - have we finally discovered the root cause of the ski class problems????
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Language is an organic thing. Meanings gradually drift.
In the sport of skiing, in English-speaking countries, it has generally been accepted that a ski instructor works with non-competitive skiers and a coach works with competitive skiers. Traditionally, that was the ONLY difference. There have always been plenty of very good instructors and bad coaches.
But recently, the word "instructor" seems to have become devalued. Everyone wants to be "coached" or have a "coach". Or at the very least, a "ski teacher" 
Fine: I suppose we will eventually see the complete demise of the phrase "instructor" in the context of the ski industry.
Will we have to invent some new term to differentiate between coaching for recreation and coaching for competition? - perhaps...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I think coaches are for competitive sports and instructors are for anybody. But what do I know, especially on BZK? |
and
| Martin Bell wrote: |
Language is an organic thing. Meanings gradually drift.
In the sport of skiing, in English-speaking countries, it has generally been accepted that a ski instructor works with non-competitive skiers and a coach works with competitive skiers. Traditionally, that was the ONLY difference. There have always been plenty of very good instructors and bad coaches.
But recently, the word "instructor" seems to have become devalued. Everyone wants to be "coached" or have a "coach". Or at the very least, a "ski teacher"
Fine: I suppose we will eventually see the complete demise of the phrase "instructor" in the context of the ski industry.
Will we have to invent some new term to differentiate between coaching for recreation and coaching for competition? - perhaps... |
Well, there's a thing...I think we can assume that, unlike me, Martin Bell knows a thing or two.
A very interesting gloss on the whole debate, which shows that, over time, practically anybody can be proved be right. Lewis Carroll got it right: 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.'
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Martin Bell,
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In the sport of skiing, in English-speaking countries, it has generally been accepted that a ski instructor works with non-competitive skiers and a coach works with competitive skiers.
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When I was young they were called trainers.
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
Martin Bell,
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In the sport of skiing, in English-speaking countries, it has generally been accepted that a ski instructor works with non-competitive skiers and a coach works with competitive skiers.
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When I was young they were called trainers. |
Me too.
And "trainer" is still used far more frequently than "coach" on skiing's World Cup, because it has the same meaning in English and German.
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Isn't 'coach' a more Americanised term - often used for sports field activities such as American football and baseball. Personally I have always had great respect for my instructors (in all things I've done). I still think though that coaching is more to do with the honing of pre-existing essential skills that have previously been taught by 'instructors'. Though that is not to say that 'instructors' can't 'coach' any more than it is to say that 'coaches' can't be 'instructors'. Neither do I know which job is more satisfying for the instructor/coach. The instructor working with the Kindergarten grown in the 'ski garden' this year told me that she finds it brilliant to work with the same kids for 4 or 5 days and take them from 'never slid down a slope before' to confident enough to 'ride the poma and come down a respectable slope unassisted'. That to me implies a little of both sides of the coin - basic instruction and then practice and refinement to hone the skills to a point of usability - that sounds a little like coaching. Thinking of my own lessons I believe there is a little of both in that too. I am instructed in the correct way to do something, I try it, the technique is coached/honed within the lesson to the point (hopefully) of being usable, then I spend the afternoon 'training'!! to put it into practice myself. So there could even three different areas, instruction, coaching and training. However, I think the 'coaching' is delivered by the 'expert' whilst the 'training' is something put into practice by the 'novice' on the receiving end.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, I doubt it is just an american term....
etymology came up with : Meaning "instructor/trainer" is c.1830 Oxford University slang for a tutor who "carries" a student through an exam; athletic sense is 1861.
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I was wondering how long it would be before that Lewis Carroll quote came out . I think there are plenty of us who would give their eye-teeth for the opportunity FastMan described  . Further to what I said above, I think the important thing is what is involved, and the terms used are pretty irrelevant. FWIW I tend to use Instructor when they're introducing me to something new, generally over a short period of time (say up to a week), and coach when they're helping me to improve what I know I should be doing but am not - generally over a longer period of time. I sometimes use the different words for the same person, depending on how we are working at the time - but it's really not important. I have never used, and never expect to use, the term "ski teacher" (other than on this board).
Whatever they're called, their job is to provide informed feedback that enables you to improve your skiing, in a way that works for you, and your job is to "take that on board" (horrible phrase - clearly spent too much time in the company of trendy management), act on it and make the most of their professional experience. The longer the relationship has gone on the higher the likelihood the instructor/coach will find the right triggers to get the message over to the pupil. In my case that involves understanding of 'why' as much as 'what', which then allows me to continue that further when I no longer have the benefit of their watchful eye.
Following on from Easiski's point, if there is no personal involvement there is absolutely no point for having a human instructor - you'd get just as much from a book or DVD/vid. I remember now I have actually once had someone that fitted that bill - he was the director of a ski school in Val d'I, the three days I had with him were a complete waste of time and money, and I will never go on another SCGB week that has him on the instructor list (this was the exception though, all other SCGB instruction weeks I've been on have been excellent).
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