Teaching Methods for very young children

A snowHead

There has been some good debate on technical analysis and tactics on other threads but it seems to get mixed up with teaching methodology and can come across a bit too techi and jargon ridden

In teaching under 5 year old beginners there will be obviously no scope at all for technical explanations so how bout going over tips on how best to get young uns skiing.

To kick off the debate I do an under 5's slot and have had some 2 1/2 year olds. Should you

A) get them playing/skiing as a group or
B) spend time with each one individually.

I assumed one way was right but was completely wrong initially and had a handfull my first few goes. Laughing

for toddlers is it a good idea to have parents nearby or should you send them out of sight?

A snowHead

Parents.

Hurrmmph.

Well.

The first "test" that should be applied is whether or not little Johnny or Katie are capable of spending 30 or 40 mins in the presence of an instructor, other kids, without their parents being nearby. ie: can they cope without. If no, they are not ready. If yes, so far so good.

If yes, parents should not be anywhere near their little ones, for a number of reasons, including, the kids playing up to the parents, the parents providing a distraction for the kid, the parents stepping in etc.

There. I've opened the can wink

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As a parent we did the following: One of us took child to ski school having checked that in addition to correct clothing boots pass poles and ski's they had a choccy bar or some sweets, a couple of € in case they went for a drink with the instructor. At the meeting point helped them put on their bib. Once contact with the instructor has been made and child acknowledged leave and get on nearest lift etc and don't look back (even if they are crying!). Worked for all of oursand few more relatives friends etc.

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veeeight, Sounds absolutely right on the face of it, but I guess that teaching kids also encompasses dealing with nervous parents!

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2 and a half? that seems a bit young for ski school?

I learnt to ski when I was about 3 and a half. I was always sent to ski school for about 11 out of a 13 day family holiday. I can't remember much about the lessons, except it did involve; fun, tears, falling in love with the ski instructor, being cold, hating skiing, loving skiing.. and on one occasion wetting myself!! Although that may have been a friend - i can't remember! Ha ha! I don't think i learnt much about technique until i was well into double figures. It's just about having fun, and copying the teacher. That's how young kids learn.

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I feel fully qualified to chip into this one.

Without a shaddow of doubt when taking young kids anywhere where you have confidence in the ability of the carers to leave them alone, i.e. ski school, nursery, school, soccer school etc. The best thing is exactly as boredsurfin, has said. Set the child up for the duration of the leaving (i.e. make sure that they have any necessary refreshment provision, toileting necessities, warm clothes), hand them over, let the child know that you are leaving for the duration, and GO without a backwards look and don't return until the activity is over.

As parent of two of the most self sufficient kids going for their age the above strategy works.

In terms of instructing - all the instruction my kids have ever, in all fields, had has been as a group - you generally get at least one that will try something and then the rest follow. I recall my sons Kindergarten ski garden course this year - he was 4 the other kids between 3 and 5 - in the finish the instructor took them up the drag lift to as high on the training slope as I had been going - she got them down it 3 times (picked up each one about 53 times though! She had the patience of a saint), but those kids didn't look back. What one did they all did - if one got going well they all got going well, if one fell down the rest fell down, but kids are a herd. Teach them as a group and take a supply of patience pills with you.

After all it is free

boredsurfin, and they still have that choccy bar or skis to this day!!! Toofy Grin

Hurtle, I hear what you are asking, in an ideal setup the instructor concentrates on the kids, and the supervisor is left standing and re-assuring the nervous parents!

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veeeight, NO the parents should be encouraged to b*gger off! After all they leave the kids at the school gate, they don't hang around to watch the lessons and / or Teacher's Sad

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boredsurfin, Sorry, I could have written that better/clearer.

What I meant to say was, the instructor concentrates on the kids (and whisks them away quick) - leaving the supervisor talking to the parents.

In no way am I condoning the parents hanging around!!

veeeight, Quite right Very Happy

You know it makes sense.

veeeight, boredsurfin, Yes, that must be right.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Junior#1 first started skiing when he was less than one. Last month, at age 5, he scored more points that I did at the Gloucester summer race league meeting. On snow, he'll ski bumps, steeps, and keep going all day (only has trouble in heavy snow when he lack of weight means he can't drive though it). You can see his progression up to before last winter here: http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/3872733

Junior#2 will be starting skiing before Christmas - when he'll be 8 months. But at that age, the "lesson" will be 10 minutes sliding on the counter-slope at the local artificial slope - not the sort of thing you can do in a formal lesson, but when both mum and dad are qualified instructors, it's actually quite easy. Toofy Grin

We use equipment from kidski. Not available in the UK, but they do ship internationally: http://www.applerise.com/ - click on "Downhill Skiing" - especially the ski-bar: http://www.applerise.com/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ARS&Product_Code=1406-BAR2&Category_Code=1600

A snowHead

This has to be specific to the child, surely? We have some threads about highly athletic 6 year olds who have learnt to snowboard (and I've seen some myself) but there are some nervous, cautious, kids who are just worried about things. It's not just the attitude of the parents - my three kids had completely different responses to quite similar experiences. Also depends on whether they can do little and often with experienced/qualified parents (obviously ideal) or one week a year being thrust into the care of a complete stranger with a bunch of other kids. I don't see that there can be a "one size fits all" answer here. Some respond to a bit of competition, and/or a bit of chivvying, others don't. Some are spurred on if they see others doing well, some are just discouraged and more convinced than ever that they're no good (poor little sods). Some will just not cope with being left in a ski school, in a strange environment, with practically no familiar points of reference, at 3 or 4 years old, some will be fine.

A snowHead

We handed ours over to the Mark Warner nanny and we went skiing - dont know what happened after that Very Happy

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pam w, Thank goodness ! thought it was just me. I have one child who responds well to just being left but the other is a lot more cautious, he's a sensitve kid - I don't want him to be, he just is. He doesn't come off the mat or wave to me or talk to me, he just likes to know I'm there.
Also, not all instructors are the same, some are brill and you are quite happy to leave them, others it's a different story and you can't pick and choose your instructor unless you go the private route.
I'd be interested to know what the insructors here think is important with young kids apart from losing the parents! Purely from an empirical stance I would say 1) They need very precise instruction - not just what you want them to do when skiing down but what you want them to do when they get to the bottom. 2) they need frequent feedback not neccesarily teaching points just something to let them know you're still there even just an "ok go and do that again" - Then the kid feels secure and is happy and will enjoy their lesson which, at
that age, is all you want.
I've lost count of the number of times my slightly dozy 4 year old has joined the wrong class 'cos instructors all look the same when they wear the same ski suit and hats. Not all of his teachers have noticed!

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Frosty the Snowman, Razz

I will be reading this thread with interest next year when mouth junior hits 2!

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Mouth, 2? We'll have him on ski's before then Toofy Grin

and skiing better than his Father before he's 5 Very Happy

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Mouth, He'll realise himself in a couple of years time Laughing

After all it is free

i think we are all in agreement that mom and dad should go get a coffee and leave junior.

I am talking here about 3-5 YO beginner kids and typically pre schoolers so perhaps not in the heard mentality that Megamum rightly says.

My two pennith (and im a parent) i have found that the kids respond well as a group when doing simple things on the flat, Skating like bart simpson on one ski, follow the leader with both skis, etc...

But once we start going up the hill or they get cold or anything else that makes them uneasy they become self centered and easily distracted. Perhaps it is the loud music in the snow dome or looking for mom, but they dont function as a group at all. it might be a self preservation thing coming into play.

After running these sessions MK now has a helper with each instructor so that the instructor can focus soley on each kid as they go down the slope. the helper gets them herded up at the bottom and going back up. group instruction or explanations dont seem to work and each kid needs one on one commands.

I did read that the very young kids are egocentric (terrible twos) and at that age i find they dont "play" with the other kids, they go inwards. This of course is stereotyping, not all do this and some are engaging and look after their new mates, but that is not the norm IME.

In a mountain environment i think <3's shoudl be in a nursery and > 3 a kindergarden in a closed environment with magic carpets, courses and a warm indoors with toilets nearby...

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jbob, if it is a nursery/fun situation parents should stick aroudn to help but if the aim is instruction then no IMO.

4 is a good limit and what we do at MK

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skimottaret You teach little ones at MK? I've just booked our daughter into Sno!cubs. Do you do that too?

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You know it makes sense.

geetee, yeah i do snocubs sometimes and that is where i am coming from on this thread... Unfortunately i have had to give up teaching for the next few months as my daughter broke her leg quite badly and needs looking after at home so wont be at MK for few months....

jbob, agreed! THere is a "parent and toddler" session at MK for kids that need mom or dad and the parents are actively encouraged to help but this is more of a fun thing with throwing snowballs being the height of the expectations wink

With Mom there little instruciton can take place.

pam w, glad to hear that, it lasts until they get to around 4 or 5 and in pre school IMO.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

thanks all for the speedy recovery comments....

Ok knowing our "enemy" at 3 or 4 or maybe even 5 are underdeveloped both physically and mentally how to we teach them to ski?

I like to start them on one ski sliding around to warm them up. they can chase me if a bit older. once they can get around a bit do some figure of eights so they feel the ski moving around an arc...

All commands to be analogy or visual images. never use right or left, uphill downhill, they dont get it and get frustrated. use language like take off "this" foots ski, pointing at right or left etc...

Then get them start up the hill a bit side stepping, no explanation just pick them up and put them into position. Once up a bit demo a "good" one legged glide and let them have at it. let them figure out how to turn to get downhill dont explain it. may take a few goes...then

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pam w, sorry the "good" one legged demo is done by insturctor a "bad" one legged is waving arms all over the place.. You would be surprised how well the kids can do short one legged slides and we are only talking 10 feet or so to start with...

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OK, so here I go:
Firstly I think it's innapropriate for under 4's to go to ski school. Kids must deffo have been to nursery etc. and be used to being without their parents and then the parents must go away. I no longer teach small beginners in winter (bad shoulder and back), but with the skiers I sometimes allow the parents to hang around for a bit till they get used to me if they're under 5.

I do think the best way for any kid to start is with mummy and daddy playing 'push and catch' or pulling them along on the flat etc. their attention span is about 5 mins!!! Thus you should be armed with bucket and spade, sledge, non-ski boots and change of gloves etc. That way you can vary the games from skiing to sledging to snowcastle or snowman building. The bucket and spade (as per Bognor) is brilliant - a client of mine did it with his kids. Very Happy

The child should always have the responsibility for standing up on their own never hold them up between your legs - they just collapse on you. Once they can stand up and slide along quite well, I like to take them up a little lift and put them on the 'reins' (my sticks) and let them ski down. I can control their speed from behind but they are actually skiing themselves. You almost never have to tell them anything: get them to turn left by pulling on the left stick and vice-versa (have a practise), and make sure they do really wide corners. Most very small children don't understand 'turns' they go round corners - big difference. Of course this is 1-1 .... They can nearly always turn if they don't try too hard, but can often not plough under 4 or 5.

What's important? It must be fun, and the teacher must not be afraid of looking an idiot themselves! Laughing

If in a kindergarten environment then for instance, green hats/pots/whatever can be trees, blue ones a river, red ones naughty witches .... you name it - you invent a game according to what you have at hand. Remember a blue cone to a 3 year old really can be a river ...

Enough for now, I want to go home!!! NehNeh

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easiski, you wanna job next season in Montalbert (xmas 2008)??!!! I will pay well!

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Now I'm at home, some more reflections on what I've written .... Many adults don't have much imagination, so a lot of kindergartens have large animal things and so on, but they don't seem to make much use of them! Kids have wonderful imaginations, so you have to get into 'kid think' but it's important not to talk down to them. they often love having a bit of responsibility, and like to understand at their level. I find the french ski schools very lacking in games. Pretending to be an animal is always good, you can have discussions about what their favourite animal is and so on. If you want them to move during the turn when they're a bit better I find the eagle game fiarly universal: you stand up and pretend to be an eagle looking for supper (wings and all) and then you swoop down and scoop up the food and pretend to eat it. The french kids love this too, and one little boy said he ate 500 snakes on the way down once, and then added that he had a big tummy!!! Laughing

I also think it's important to talk to kids (even quite small ones) about things like snow and trees and so on. They often understand things quite well in a simple way. One 5 year old told me how important trees were because they breathe in what we breathe out and they breathe out what we breathe in - very sensible!

The biggest problems for small children involve getting up when they fall over. You should not pick them up, but they always try to cross their skis, so you have to get them into the idea of feet side by side and skis sideways on the hill (they like this better than across), and then doing the forward roll move. If you pick them up they'll become dead weight.

When taking them up pomas, you should put small kids on your knee and you have the button - don't try to go up holding on it will kill your back!! Only one arm over the pole is also important.

Right, I'm sure to think of lots more things, but that's enough for now ... wink

After all it is free

I'm with pam w, and easiski, on this one. Third child (now 6) started at age 2 and she just wasn't ready for ski school. We started the way that easiski, describes with me and Mr M. pushing and pulling. We also only went for a 3 day short-break on her 1st time.

We then moved on to 1 to 1 lessons with an instructor and us close by. Then eventually moved on to ski school when she felt happy left alone. I think if we hadn't done that she might have been put off the whole idea.

Age 2 is very different to age 5 or 6 so just leaving them alone might not be appropriate. I'm not an over-protective parent, I just want my kids to enjoy skiing and want to do it again.

I've been watching this thread with interest, being the mother of an almost 4 year old, and I quite agree with easiski. It needs to be fun and the children need to be able to relate what they know about to the skiing. easiski I'm with you with the no ski school for under 4's. They do have 3 to 4 year old programs at Whistler but when we were there last season our little one was only 3 years and 2 months and, in our opinion, just too young to go to ski school (and she'd only been potty trained the previous month!) Instead we did take her for a few sessions but we let her decide when she was fed up with the sliding and wanted to just run about in her ski boots. It worked well and she enjoyed what she did.

http://uk.youtube.com/v/JU2o7zYARzk

So this year she's looking forward to skiing. I've started asking her if she'd like to ski and she says ''oh yes'. So I've also been talking about ski school and saying it's just like nursery except you get to ski as well. I think she likes the sound of this. So today I booked her on a course of 4 1 hour lessons at the Milton Keynes snowdome just to get her used to sliding about again. Fingers crossed that she likes it. I hope that because she goes to nursery 3 full days a week that she will find ski school easy this year but I still don't want to overdo it. It's not worth it if it puts her off. In my opinion, I'd rather she didn't ski as much as she'd like and be begging to ski than do too many lessons and get sick of it. Very Happy

We're off to Whistler for a week in December and I'm thinking we might do 2 days of ski school but not consecutive. We're going back in January anyway so she can do more then. The rest of the time we'll get a babysitter or put her into the creche.

Like marmalade says I don't think I'm too overprotective but I want her to enjoy skiing and want to do it again.

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I am with everyone on this as i said 3-5's should should be a kindergarden environment. Fun is the most important thing the last thing you want to do is put them off... but there is a demand for lessons for 3-5's and MK offers instruction as well as a parent toddler session...

I am with easiski on the animation for the kids, imagry is everything and just getting them to have fun and try to do a movement (i like the eagle swooping one!!) is a real result.

I do get parents who bring their little one for 4 x 1 hour lessons on the basis that this will then allow them to go into ski school when they go on holidays and a big dose of reality usually has to administered....

On the falling down and not picking up i agree as well and try to show them the best/correct way to get up. Some instructors dont actively teach falling down and getting up prefering to handle it as it comes but i think getting it out of the way and showing the correct way helps everyone.. But some parents expect you to immediately help little johnny if he cant get up, and you are the big bad lazy instructor if they get frustrated...

geetee, great video and nice to see a magic carpet and enclosed area, also cones can be fun to have a little race course. snowHead

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Teaching Methods for very young children

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