 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all I have recently damaged my knee playing football (medial ligament I think). Are there any Snowheads out there that are or have skied with similar injuries as I would be most grateful for any feedback on whether it is wise or if there are precautions I can take. I did it 12 weeks ago and it still is not right and we are skiing at Christmas, Feb and Easter. Cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dk100, Have you seen a knee specialist?
You need to know to what extent the ligament is damaged.
In my experience the MCL responds well to physio therapy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm with Frosty the Snowman, on getting an accurate diagnosis...
I tore medial ligament and was back skiing on it 5 weeks after - I did have it heavily taped and had to take it easy (short days) and had been doing extensive workouts on it from 3 days post injury until the ski holiday....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ligaments are slow healers generally, see a GOOD physio. Maybe look to build up the muscles around the knee as ligaments are infamous for doing the work that muscles should do..!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Did my MCL years ago. Not a big issue. Probably the best knee injury you can hope for.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hi dk100, as you can see from the above, people's experience of medial colateral ligament damage and healing is variable. This is becasue the injury itself may vary in degree.
Ligament injuries are given a formal classification which basically could be called minor, moderate or severe. In a minor injury, the ligament has some in-substance tearing but has not been stretched. In the moderate injury, the ligament is stretched and therefore the knee is temporarily a bit unstable. In the severe variety, there is a complete tear of the MCL and this does not always heal (and is often accompanied by other injuries e.g. meniscal or ACL) and may require an operation to repair it.
It would be helpful to know what treatment and investigation you have had so far in order to be able to give more advice.
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Nick L,
You are right to point out the degrees of injury. Anyone who has played sports should be aware of the difference between a pull, strain and tear or example, even if these generally refer to muscles which heal quicker. IME, if I sprained/tweaked a muscle I'd be over it in a few days.. If I pulled a hamstring, two weeks to playing football and full sprinting again, if I tore something...very rarely, I couldn't walk for a good few days. I am not medical but ligaments, I would think, would take a lot longer than these times to 'repair'. For example, a bad ankle sprain or turn-over might be 6 weeks to play if strapped and upto a year to knit together properly. A professional athelete might have surgery to circumvent this as they couldn't afford the time to let the ligament heal itself.
After 12 weeks I'd be talking to a Sports Physio
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Thanks for all your replies. I have been going to a sports therapist who has hand manipulated the area and given acupuncture, but unfortunately it does not appear to be responding, so I have therefore booked in to see a specialist through NHS in 3 weeks time. My concern is that I read everywhere that it should have healed by now and even though I can walk on it and even jog gently I cannot kick a football or turn sharply without pain. It is concerning me that it will not be up to the stress that skiing puts on your knee. It is very frustrating. Are knee braces any use?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dk100, Keep up with pyshio, keep working on the muscle /strength building and re-assess after your consultation
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the thing with ligaments, as I understand it, is if it snaps totally (like mine) it will never heal because the two loose ends will never get together to knit and form a blood supply. Bones do because they are rigid and can be held close together.
Different levels of partial tear in the ligament or damage where it attaches to the bone can reppair, but very slowly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| lampbus wrote: |
Different levels of partial tear in the ligament or damage where it attaches to the bone can reppair, but very slowly. |
Yep... that is what happened with mine... a very small thread remained and the doc told me that this helps it repair.... I had to work like a demon to get range of motion and improve strength.... then tape to support that knee (my leg looked like a mummy).... I spent weeks in the pool every day with a kickboard and had to do 1 leg squats all the time(liek everytime I went for coffee or to the loo).... I worked with an entire floor of doctors who were horrified I was even walking about on it at the start - let alone exercising.... but they were impressed with the progress it made doing what the sports doc had prescribed.... Absolutely no lateral strain was allowed though even though the leg was working so hard - gym had to rework my program a bit.... The bike was my best buddy for a long time too....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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dk100,
Knee braces only do what the leg muscle group SHOULD do..and it depends on the state of these, IME. Maybe a brace will stop the knee being positioned improperly..when you do simple thngs like get up out of a chair... and may help here in respect of not compunding the problem/injury but my guess..and it is a guess, is that you have a bit more than a strain and a specialist is the way to go
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dk100, The doctor I saw worked for the Australian Institute of Sport.... he told me I could forget about a knee brace unless I paid a substantial amount for a custom made one as there is too much play in most to support the medial ligament.... Hence why I was taped up like a mummy.... I think I probably spent around $150 on tape alone and I was getting it at wholesale price in bulk packets... the sort of price he was talking about for the brace was hundreds of dollars.... and this was all nearly ten years ago....
I could not even turn over in bed for weeks without the tape... so I sympathise....  it was pretty painful and really annoying to make such a simple movement and be unable to get the leg to follow properly....
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You know it makes sense.
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dk100, sounds similiar to the problems I've been having, get(got) pain when twisting etc, jogging was fine.
I'm glad to say the physio I've been using seems to have made a difference, he's been working on loosening my hammies and other areas which wasn't allowing the kneecap to work without grating on bone.
My thread was here:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=636363#636363
Cheers.
greg
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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dk100, I am a little concerned that you say that you
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have been going to a sports therapist who has hand manipulated the area and given acupuncture
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IMV manipulation has very little, if any, place in a ligament tear as all he may be doing is breaking down any repairing tissue. People can set themselves up as Sports Therapists with very little in the way of qualification or training, unlike physios.
I really would suggest that you seek help from a proper physio (they will have MCSP after their name)
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Poster: A snowHead
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I injured my MCL skiing back in March. It was not torn all the way through though aparently but my knee was imobilised for about 5 weeks so the rest of my leg muscles had wasted away in that time. Once they let me use the leg again though it was excessively painful regaining full movement initially and only in the last month or so have I been able to run on it again without suffereing too badly again the next day. I don't get any pain from it now but am still a bit worried about what it will be able to cope with as far as skiing goes again.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spideog, that is why the sports guy did not want me on crutches.... he said I needed to maintain leg strength.... the doctors I worked with were appalled that I was in the pool the day after seeing him - which was only about 4-5 days after the accident.... he was quite determined I get into the pool ASAP and do it as much as possible... if I could have got access twice daily I think he would have had me there... Ditto the no crutches for keeping range of movement.. he really hassled me to try to walk on it and as normally as possible ASAP.... (I tended to use the hip a lot as I could not extend to the ground)... It did seem to work in the end because I recovered pretty well but the first 2-3 weeks were hell... Very nasty trying to limp around at work(I kept hopping as I was faster)... and the kickboarding made me sore... and then getting on an exercise bike and doing squats...  I'd do it all again though in retrospect as my recovery seemed very good
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I shouldn't have been in the brace for so long really, but it was a combination of excessive "treatment" in resort in Italy with them imobilising me, and then the NHS in Bristol being too cautios to just take the brace off sooner when they saw me until they had done a scan of my knee. I did inherit a nice set of crutches and a very fancy brace from Italy though, although the NHS did try to take them off me at the end as they liked the look of them, seeing as they were paied for by my Irish insurance though I managed to keep hold of them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Nick L wrote: |
dk100, I am a little concerned that you say that you
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have been going to a sports therapist who has hand manipulated the area and given acupuncture
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IMV manipulation has very little, if any, place in a ligament tear as all he may be doing is breaking down any repairing tissue. People can set themselves up as Sports Therapists with very little in the way of qualification or training, unlike physios.
I really would suggest that you seek help from a proper physio (they will have MCSP after their name) |
She is a qualified osteopath also. Ironic really as I had booked an advanced appointment for my troublesome back only to do my knee the night before at football. With regards to manipulation I think I remember her saying the fibrous tissue often knits together incorrectly in a lump therefore making it more prone to future tearing. It should be broken down via manipulation so that the torn fibres will repair correctly and stronger. Oh and I think she also mentioned it will help bring in extra blood supply to the affected area or something like that. As I am no doctor you just have to take their word for it. I have not seen her now for 5 weeks as it was not improving hence the need to see a specialist for an exact diagnosis. Knowing the NHS I am expecting them to fob me off and send me away as I am not dying and I can walk on it.... Think I will have to be firm with them as I have always played sports at various standards and am still young enough to want to carry on. Here's hoping they can help..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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dk100, I tore all the ligaments in my knee, skiing the April before last. It was treated immediately with ice & physio. I escaped the threat of surgery by working on the knee so I could straighten it within 3 weeks of the injury. I must admit I worked in the gym to strenghten it once I got the go-ahead from the physio, but on the advice of the orthopaedic surgeon, I wore a donjoy knee brace for a while when exercising - tennis & gym. I also wore it for skiing again last season & had no problems at all - it was great. Recently though, doing fairly strenuous walking in the alps this summer, the medial ligament gave me a bit of bother when walking downhill - I'd left the brace at home.
Take Nick L's advice & see a good physio.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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dk100, I would agree with your sports therapist/osteopath's view about wanting the ligaments not to shorten but really this should be done by stretching, not manipulation (IMHO).
I am afraid that I don't know any Sports Injury Physios in Leicester so can't make a recommendation but you can look up physios in the yellow pages and usually there is a box advert from the Chartered Society of Physiotherapists listing their local members.
IMV, the service you are likely to get from an NHS physio dept may well be inadequate and since you are a sportsman who is still
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young enough to want to carry on
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you might be well advised to get some private physio organised while you are waiting for the NHS to pull its finger out.
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dk100, just a thought, can you find out who the physio is for either the football or rugby teams? FIL was a sports physio and registed osteopath, and he once suggested to a friend of ours that they contact one of the local sports teams, as he did not have any contacts in the area. NHS physios were very pleased to be relieved of a patient when hubby damaged his ankle ligaments. Fracture clinic were none too pleased at the plaster cast being refused though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dk100, Is your knee still swelling up? If so at 12 weeks its unlikely to be an isolated MCL ijury, but as Nick L says maybe a meniscus or ACL. If not then perhaps a sports physio, if yes get yourself referred to for an MRI
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| Martin Nicholas wrote: |
| dk100, Is your knee still swelling up? If so at 12 weeks its unlikely to be an isolated MCL ijury, but as Nick L says maybe a meniscus or ACL. If not then perhaps a sports physio, if yes get yourself referred to for an MRI |
There is slight swelling but only over the medial ligament. Any pressure to the instep e.g. a football or catching something when tripping causes the knee pain. Also I get pain when standing on my good leg and bending the knee upwards. Immediately after the tackle my knee would buckle inwards when weight was placed on it, however this does not happen now.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Not withsatnding all this advice, I would suggest that ligaments can complain when doing the support that muscles should do and it took quite a wise old physio who pointed out that my legs should not be expected to play football in that state..!!! And I have never had any problem with muscles definition and certainly not at that age.
I would expect your physio to have gotten past that issue tho' or pointed it out.
BTW, I still prepare my leg muscles in the same way ..courtesy of that wise old physio..!!!
The best brace for your knees are your own muscles...!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Immediately after the tackle my knee would buckle inwards when weight was placed on it, however this does not happen now.
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Sounds as though your MCL is repairing, and that there is something else not quite right. I would get an expert opinion, perhaps via your GP.
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JT,
I get your message that knee braces are not the answer. Only I thought it may help my knee with the first bit of skiing in the season or possibly ( more likely) give my mind more confidence when making that first turn... Also thought it may help prevent more serious tears in other ligaments such as cruciate if damaged ligament gives way.
Martin Nicholas,
Thats what I'm waiting for on the 26th of this month (orthopedic surgeon).
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Wed 12-09-07 15:24; edited 2 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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dk100,
Personally, never had to wear one but others have conveyed the idea that it gives them confidence and I can understand that.
I hope it works out for you and I guess it is all about how stable you feel the knee is and what you can put it through.
And possibly only you will know once you have tried it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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i think you should speak to someone who is qualified to give advise on something so important ,
i tore my acl feb07 ,and it still hurts.
i have just paid six hundred pounds for a pair of knee braces,prevention is better than a cure 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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chris boarder, he says he has a medial ligament problem.... not an acl.... and that advice was from a sports medicine doctor that worked at the australian institute of sport for my medial ligament tear... but then what would he know...
you should work on the comprehension skills.... or did you injure brain as well? 
| little tiger wrote: |
| dk100, The doctor I saw worked for the Australian Institute of Sport.... he told me I could forget about a knee brace unless I paid a substantial amount for a custom made one as there is too much play in most to support the medial ligament.... Hence why I was taped up like a mummy.... I think I probably spent around $150 on tape alone and I was getting it at wholesale price in bulk packets... the sort of price he was talking about for the brace was hundreds of dollars.... and this was all nearly ten years ago.... |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| dk100 wrote: |
JT,
I get your message that knee braces are not the answer. Only I thought it may help my knee with the first bit of skiing in the season or possibly ( more likely) give my mind more confidence when making that first turn... Also thought it may help prevent more serious tears in other ligaments such as cruciate if damaged ligament gives way.
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The knee brace I used definately gave me confidence & helped support my knee - although I'd worked it pretty hard at the gym prior to skiing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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chris boarder, Welcome to 
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chris boarder, Welcome to s. Nice of you to offer advice on your first post - most people are looking for advice themselves when they start posting. As others have said, this is a friendly place in the main.....mad, but friendly! Inevitably the odd comment gets posted which raises the eyebrows, but I guess that happens in the real world too. Your advice was perfectly sensible and I would hope that little tiger might come back with an apology.
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chris boarder, Welcome.
Agree, that you didn't deserve that post. Most of the advice and banter here is useful and friendly so don't let thoughtless posts like that put you off.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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sorry if my coment wasnt any use ,but i no how important medical imformation is ,when i was thirteen i was riding world top 40 motocross ,believe me i have seen my fair share of
knee
injuries ,if its not sorted out you will suffer big time when ou are older.some people are to brain damaged to under stand that ,luckly enough my brain is ok.
think about it kitten ,i mean tiger,getting paid for racing motocross,not having to put a hand in my pocket,get given every thing you can think off to do with racing
now whos brain damaged ,he who laughs last,laughs the longest 
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| little tiger wrote: |
| chris boarder, he says he has a medial ligament problem.... not an acl.... |
Actually he said he wasn't sure which ligament it was, |
| dk100 wrote: |
| Hi all I have recently damaged my knee playing football (medial ligament I think). |
I advised him to get an accurate diagnosis and then explained the advice given to me when I had the injury he suspects he has... I cannot comment on other than that....
Guess what? JT did the same thing - explained HIS experience with such matters... So did Bode AWiller,kitenski, and Spideog. Lampbus also discussed his understanding of ligament tears following HIS experience... WOW people speak from their experiences 
As he wanted to discuss bracing options despite lack of an accurate diagnosis I repeated the advice I was given for skiing with a medial ligament tear in regards to knee braces and the benefit in skiing (I skied for 4 weeks not long after a fairly major tear)... This advice was given by a sports medicine doctor working in the Australian Institute of Sport at the time who is now a knee surgeon as well(I have had dealings with him since in a non patient situation)
I also explained that this advice went contrary to the advice of many medical practitioners I worked with on a daily basis... but resulted in better outcomes than they expected...
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FAQ
and maybe you should work on your communication skills 