 Poster: A snowHead
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This has apparently just occurred to the French Ski Instructors Union, their president Gilles Chabert today stating:
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| “From now on, we shall ask ski schools to ensure that they have at least one instructor who speaks English”. |
He hopes to ensure an increase in the number of English-speaking instructors over the next few years. Realisation has dawned that the French winter sports tourism industry is increasingly looking to a foreign clientele.
According to Christian Rochette of the Mountain Professionals Association there are currently 32 million people skiing in Europe, 15 million in North America, and 12 million in Japan. In an average season some 7 to 7.5 million snow sports practitioners take to the slopes in French resorts, this figure including some 1.8 skiers/boarders from abroad, a proportion that is on the increase. The British remain the largest foreign contingent, followed by the Dutch, the Belgians and the Germans.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My problem with the ESF (admittedly I've not skied with them for the past 10 years or so) was not so much of a language problem, but a lack of teaching. It was mostly a 'follow me' style, interspersed with occasionaly chats about what we should be doing. At no point did there seem to be any analysis of how I was skiing, and no individual feedback on what I needed to do to improve. I'm sure that there are lots of good ESF instructors out there, but unfortunately I didn't find any. As a result I abandoned ski school for several years until a friend persuaded me to take a class with a British ski school, where my experience was significantly different to my ESF classes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The ESF is changing, there is a recognition that they have to be more 'client aware' and this means speaking, English, Dutch, Danish etc. Certainly in our small resort, the ESF, EVO2 and the ESI all work very hard to deliver a good teaching experience. Interestingly, one of the ESF guys I know told me he prefers English clients because they don't moan all the time like the French! I was also told by a ski-school Director that whilst there are still a few of the old 'ben ze knees und follow me' types they are being driven out.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 17-10-04 18:31; edited 1 time in total
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David@traxvax, I'm glad to hear that. Perhaps I shouldn't be so vigorous in my recommendation to avoid the ESF!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ESF  agree with Rob above, they just don't care, because they monopolise the french alps which is the reason I now prefer Switzerland or indeed anywhere else. rant over.
ps - its been 5 year since I've skied in france and perhaps things are changing.
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hibernia, Loads more choice these days, and some excellent ESF instructors. Times are changing. Still a few dinosaurs around, but they are becoming extinct. Arrogance still a problem at times. I reckon we've used not far short of a hundred or so instructors in France altogether, the majority French. Some are absolutely top notch.
If you don't like the ESF, use one of the many alternatives. If you don't like the French, well that's another matter!
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hibernia, ESF aren't the only option when skiing in France. There are smaller ski schools in many resorts including some first class British-staffed ski schools, many of which seemed to have started in response to unhappyness with ESF's approach. The British ski schools I've skied with have transformed my skiing and helped me rediscover my passion for skiing.
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rog@rar.org.uk I agree and indeed did use one from memory called Ski Cocktail in Meribel in 1997 - they were english and were excellent - I don't know whether they still exist but could highly recommend them. No, my point is that if you ski in France then ESF has the biggest share of the market and as a result they have got complecent ( bear in mind I have not been there for 5 years and this was an aspect that put me off France in a big way )
Anyways my learning to ski days are over but I was not impressed ( at taht time )!
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sun 17-10-04 20:21; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No monopolies in Switzerland then?
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I have also found some excellent ESF instructors in particular the newly qualified ones seem to be pretty helpful so things do seem to be changing but there are still plenty of long in the tooth mountain men who spend most of the day waving to and chatting to lifties/mates/girls (well I suppose the last one's fair enough) and not teaching at all. I agree there is more choice in the larger ski stations with good schools opening, personal recommendation of instructors would appear to be crucial - but shame its a bit of a lottery though for most pupils attending a ski school class with no influence over the selection of the instructor.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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David@traxvax - not apparent, not like the ESF monolith.
Anyways, if someone asks me where is the best ski instruction ; without hesitation I would say Austria - technically very detailed and for 5 days, mornings and afternoon, after that you feel that you learned something.
" Follow me " style is fine for guiding and leading but for the nitty-gritty aspects a learner needs to know where he is making mistakes and IMHO the Austrians are best at this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hibernia, as you've said you haven't been to France for 5 yrs so how would you know how much things have changed. My wife would certainly disagree with you about Austria, she had one of the worst instructors she ever met in St Anton, within the last 5 yrs. Young, inexperienced, poorly qualified and with poor English. Good instructors are good instructors wherever they are and bad ones likewise. Generalisations don't help anyone, I'm always surprised that people don't complain or ask to be moved to another class if they think their tuition is not good enough. Try it, it usually works.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 17-10-04 22:29; edited 1 time in total
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Complain?! David, please, we're British 
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You know it makes sense.
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We have been going to Courchevel for the last 3 seasons and we have been with ESF every time and they have been fantastic. They have been rigourous in their teaching while also sharing with us their love of the mountains. We have had different instructors every year and yet they have all offered to take us out skiing with them at no extra cost after their last lesson. Though the ages and styles of each intructor was very different they all shared a passion for the mountains which they were only too pleased to share with us. The 1550 ESF school have been very very good.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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We used Evolution 2 in Chamonix for our 3 daughters and our eldest had such a poor experience that she was virtually put off skiing for life. She had to be dragged to the airport the following year. My youngest was similarly badly affected. Initially her group were allocated an English instructor by Evo 2, who she loved. Unfortunately the parents of the one French boy in the group complained that he didn't know enough French so the predominately English group were then saddled with a French instructor who's English was very poor.
While I realise that you cannot judge an outfit by one experience. Skiing holidays are so precious that you cannot afford to risk them a second year with the same group - you only get one chance to make a first impression, as the saying goes.
In future, our family holidays will now be more based in Switzerland and Austria, where (as I understand - and would welcome correction) tour groups can more easily take and use their own English instructors.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ray Zorro, most of the major French ski areas have either British-run ski schools or independent British ski instructors, so it's no problem if you want to ski in France and be taught by a Brit.
As you say, skiing holidays are precious, so the reason that I recommend British ski schools is the much higher chance of good teaching with no language problems. My experience of instruction with ESF in several resorts was mainly negative, but since switching to British ski schools it has been entirely positive. While things might be improving in ESF schools I'm still of the opinion that you have a far higher chance of a positive experience with a British school/instructor than you do with ESF.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar.org.uk, I am entirely in agreement with you in respect of using English ski instructors.
Maybe it would be helpful if people indicated on this site where there are either British-run ski schools or independent British ski instructors or where there is a specific separate allowance for those that are non-French speaking.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I stuck a huge list here on the forum somewhere. Now to see how good the search facility is!.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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PG, Wow. What a speedy response, I wish you ran my bank, insurance company and all the other institutions that I deal with.
An excellent list, maybe there is a way it can be given more prominence.
BTW What is ESI all about?
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The ESI is not Brit-run, it's a loose association of independent schools.
http://www.ecoledeski.fr/ukindex.php4 (main site)
In Les Arcs for example their representative is Arc Aventure. So standards vary, but all have English-speakers. No links to the ESF!
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ESF is changing, there is a recognition that they have to be more 'client aware' and this means speaking, English, Dutch, Danish etc
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Doubt they'd need many Dutch speakers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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They might need some Brummy, Scouse, Geordie and Glaswegian linguists though 
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Skanky, if you go to ste Foy you'll meet lots of Dutch, I think it's also true of Les Arc. Val Thorens used to run specific Dutch weeks, but as they all seemed to want was cheap, cheap accommodation and spend most of their time getting absolutely lashed, VT have changed their emphasis. I'd always thought drunken Swedes were more of a problem.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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David@traxvax, yes but I've not yet met a Dutchman who couldn't speak at least English and German and most could speak French, too. I don't know hwo good their French was, but their English was better than mine.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Skanky, you're rihght I think it's something to do with receiving all the English TV programmes, I seem to recall that 'On The Buses' was a favourite in Holland long after it went off the air here. It's interesting about some of the pockets of foreign skiers in various locations, in La Rosiere we get a lot of Danes, as well as Italians skiing over for the day and fortunately La Ros is becoming better known to more British skiers. One of the prime movers in the development of Sainte Foy is a Dutch guy who used to run the Gite de Ste Foy, so you get lots of Dutch skiers there and in Vaujany there's a Belgian TO who has attracted lots of Les Belges, and we all know about Val d'espair and Meribel.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 18-10-04 11:29; edited 1 time in total
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you're rihght I think it's something to do with receiving all the English TV programmes
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From my limited experience of the country, they subtitle all foreign films (most countries dub them), and most of those are US. However, one Dutchman told me that they learn as many other languages as they can as any language is easier to speak than Dutch. He was only half-joking, too.
As for the clumping of nationalities goes, it's probably like the examples you give with an initial "pioneer" and after that you get media reports and word of mouth reports. Plus people are still inherantly tribal.
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You know it makes sense.
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Doubt they'd need many Dutch speakers.
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Cloggie double decker buses turn up regularly in Belle Plagne and disgorge weary overnight travellers. As you say, most Dutch speak several languages very well but if ESF are catering for a sizeable market by recruiting Dutch speakers - no fault.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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kuwait_ian, no it wouldn't hurt, but on a law of diminishing returns basis, I'd have thought English & German would be the main languages.That way they'd catch their biggest markets even if only through second language (which after all, will be what most of their instructors will be using, too).
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Poster: A snowHead
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PG, how about putting your super list into bend Ze Knees as a sticky ??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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We would need to consult U-HU, U-HU Rules the glue dispensary...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masterclass are in Alpe d'Huez - a small outfit but very popular with Brits. If you know the name of an instructor in the ESF that speaks English you can request them - normally that works for a private lesson - but often during season (not school hols) you can book for a group lesson also. If anyone is interested and coming on holiday to ADH I can give you a couple of names who are either English or who really do speak excellent English within the ESF. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'd just like to re-emphasise the point that for me it was not so much a lack of English that caused the problem, but a lack of teaching. One of my ESF instructors in Flaine spoke excellent English, with a delightful French accent. He took us to out of the way pistes which were quiet, told us about local wild life, how beautiful the Flaine bowl was in the summer months, pointed out the wonderful views of Mt Blanc, entertained us with stories of pisteurs nearly blowing themselves up while blasting avalanches, etc, etc. All this is in near perfect English. The problem was he didn't teach me a thing all week. It was a perfectly good guiding service for intermediate skiers who wanted to tour the pistes, but I'd signed up for some actual instruction! I would much rather have had someone with a more tenuous grasp of English but who actually wanted to help me improve.
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