 Poster: A snowHead
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My son has just seen himself on video and was horrified. He had a whole different perception of what he would look like on skis! I'm no expert but he seems to lean back in his boots and bend forward at the waist. Was wondering if any of you technical types could suggest any drills that would help improve his stance.
A few months ago someone suggested blades saying that you can't lean back on blades- but he managed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Have someone check his boots for too much forward lean?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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comprex, He wears hired boots. Do you think it would help if I got him fitted with his own?
Why too much forward lean if he sits back?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A series of improver lessons would be a good start.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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He has had quite a few sets of lessons. The last set was an intensive weeks course in July, all of his teachers have tried to sort it out but it seems to be quite a stubborn problem.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sounds like he may have very limited ankle flex. His butt in the backseat and his upperbody leaning forward to compensate.
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ickabodblue, fair chance, yes.
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ickabodblue, how old is he?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| ickabodblue, how old is he? |
Damn you little tiger - that was my question 
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| Quote: |
he seems to lean back in his boots and bend forward at the waist.
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I recognise that description, I think it was what I did when instructors used to tell me to "get the weight forward". In my daughter's immortal expression, think "shag not sh*t". Same thing as surfing, windsurfing, etc. Gotta get the pelvic tilt right. Might be a useful thought if your son has reached puberty. Easiski's exercises on ankle flex and hopping weight around helped me a lot. "Stand up from the knees", as she says. If he can't flex his ankles so that his hips are over his bindings he needs to do the exercises to stretch the relevant calf muscle (stretch leg back, then bend knee forward). And/or get more flexible, soft, boots. And tell him not to wear stilettos, they'll shorten his hamstrings something terrible.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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little tiger, PhillipStanton, He is seven
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Jerry, He does enjoy himself yes, I think he just had this mental picture of himself that wasn't really that accurate - don't we all - It's just a bit harder to take when you're seven. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ickabodblue, if he is 7 have him pretend there is a mouse in his boot and see if he can make it squeek when he presses his shin forward......
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ickabodblue wrote: |
| - don't we all - |
Yes.
It doesn't get any easier to accept when you're 40!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It will be interesting to see what the professionals say. Small kids often seem to have that kind of stance, something about the way their bodies work. Maybe it's not anything to be too bothered about at this stage? Certainly best if he isn't made to feel bothered about it, and keeps enjoying himself. You do see kids that age who ski beautifully, but they usually are the local ski club, who have had professional race training since they were 3, not Brit visitors.
I am a keen watcher of kids on skateboards (and those new wiggly things with a joint, where they can propel themselves without scooting). It seems that they often have really good stance - and plenty of ankle flex. Because they have nothing to lean against they either have good stance or they fall off. The newbies copy the local heroes and pick up that cool, sagged, relaxed, stance with weight over the board. Maybe that would be a better way of tackling it, just send him out to the park with his mates? I wish skateboards had been around when I was 7.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ickabodblue wrote: |
| little tiger, PhillipStanton, He is seven |
ickabodblue - a couple of suggestions - neither of which are exercise-based.
Young children have a different centre of mass and physiology than adults and will naturally sit back much more than adults when flexing. The BASI Trainers I shadowed last winter generally didn't see it as an issue (I only know because I asked why they weren't addressing the "issue"). I don't, however, know at what age they would start to worry about it. But I suspect seven is too young to be worried about it. Someone here will know much more about this than me.
Also, at seven it's unlikely to be an ankle flex issue as such. One of the reasons that kids break themselves less than adults is that they are naturally more stretchy. It could be, though, that he simply doesnt have the strength yet to flex the ski boots he's been in and that they're too stiff. He could even be just doing them up too tightly.
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PhillipStanton, Thanks for that - I checked his ROM round the ankle and all is fine. I didn't worry about it too much when he was snowploughing everywhere but now that he does parallel turns it does look a bit odd. It's not me who is bothered though, it's him, he says he looks like a dork!
His teacher tried getting him to ski with the top clip of his boots undone, not sure what that was meant to do but it didn't work. I will probably get him his own boots and see if that helps, failing that he is young and enjoying his skiing so I'll just keep the camera away for a while. That's very difficult for a proud mother!! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
His teacher tried getting him to ski with the top clip of his boots undone, not sure what that was meant to do but it didn't work.
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THen it probably isnt an equipment issue but a technique issue. getting his own (comfortable) boots is a good idea but wont magically solve the problem.
Try a longer lesson perhaps, if he had just an hour it can be difficult to effect change through instruction. There are loads of drills to fix this problem but need to be demoed correctly and evaluated to see how he is getting on. Having you explain to him a drill you heard here wont do much good.
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skimottaret, So you don't think it is just an age thing then?
He does get a lot of instruction - private lesson once a week, group lesson once a week and visits to the snowdome for fun every month or so. I haven't spoken to his teacher about it yet 'cos as I said I wasn't that worried about it and neither is his teacher as far as I know. Should I be asking him to address the prob?
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i am guessing his instruction is on a dry slope and sitting back on that surface is easily ingrained and can be difficult to eliminate. As he is 7 i wouldnt be too worried, his body is doing what feels right for him and as PhillipStanton said probably doesnt have the strenght to flex the boots properly. What I would do now that he can ski parallel is get him doing fore/aft balance drills to "feel" what he saw on teh video. His instructor should have a few of these up his/her sleeve.
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skimottaret, Will do. Thanks for that
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ickabodblue, I generally find that the critical thing for small kids is ski length. If they have skis that only come up to their chest they generally stop leaning back. It seems to be something generated by the trouble they have controlling the long front end of the skis. You will have to fight the ski shop and other instructors though on this one.
That said, unless it's very extreme, he'll be able to adjust when he's about 10 or 11. However fixing it now is a good idea. Turning on one ski is good and hopping exercises (you can't hop from your heel). Be a rabbit, or a one legged person - just invent a suitable 7 year old game. Same ex, different name! If they don't like spiders they can squash spiders under their toes (but I had a boy once who insisted on squashing puppies!) If he likes dancing be a ballet dancer .... you get the picture. Don't make it hard work - poor little lad having such a shock - he's too young to work hard at it unless he wants to be a racer.
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The idea of unclipping the boots is to make sure you're stood on you feet and not using your boots to hold you up.
Ask the teacher - they've probably got method in their madness.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PhillipStanton, Yes - but I would not do it with a 7 year old!
He needs to be playing games to improve, not doing exercises and certainly not drills! It's all in a name.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, I had hoped you'd drop by. The video was dads idea because we were both so proud, we never dreamed it would backfire like it did. It was meant to show him how well he was doing! He is a very serious little boy who does work hard at it, we try to get him to lighten up but that's just his nature.
I know the hopping exercise and I'm sure if mummy makes a fool of herself being a bunny he'll join in, it'll do me a lot of good as well. I draw the line at squashing puppies though!!!
I'm on good terms with the blokes in the ski store and they'll let him try shorter skis no problem. He has just moved up to 120s and now that you mention it I don't think that was a good move.
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ickabodblue, It's all to do with the development of muscles in growing children - muscles develop trunk out. Small kiddies have disproportionately larger heads , CoM's are higher in kids than adults etc.
At seven he is just on the cusp of developing his lower body and muscles in the extremities - he won't have the ability and/or srength in his lower joints to effectively centre himself in his boots/skis - which is why you see him using his trunk to refine balance.
Neurological control develops from the head down to their feet - adults learning to ski often fall back on this method, thus we witness adult learners trying to turn with their shoulders rather than their feet.
So - because motor control and muscular strength are not well developed until adolesence, kids use their bones and equipment rather than their muscles to support their frames. The lower joints are stacked one over the other resulting in a wide straight legged stance with their hips aligned over the heels and the back of the boot supporting some of the weight. When extra forces are put on the ski in steeper terrain and/or more speed, the need to "lock" into this position in an effort to resist the forces is greater. Some adult learners fall back into this form too!
As the kid grows, say from 8,9 upwards (depending on individual development), they develop sufficient muscle strength for instructors ro begin encouraging a centred stance and increasingly refined motor skills through games.
This has been brought to you courtesy of the CSIA Teaching Children module. Now, who was it that boorishly once remarked that ski instruction wasn't medicine? 
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You know it makes sense.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| This has been brought to you courtesy of the CSIA Teaching Children module. Now, who was it that boorishly once remarked that ski instruction wasn't medicine? |
Thank you Doctor!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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veeeight - 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, fascinating. I've always wondered why so many kids adopt the 'racing snowplough' position!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Take him cross-country skiing every now and then. The soft boots give no rear support so you have to stand in the middle of the ski.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have noticed a similar stance in my kids - when I queried it I was given the following explanation by my Swiss friends who have been skiing since before they could walk and who have two kids of similar ages to my own - please note I'm about the farthest thing to an expert on here, but would be interested if this sounds about right - I think it sorts of fits in with the more complicated reasonings given above.
'When an adult skis if they have their weight behind the skis the ski's are likely to run away and deposit you in embarassing positions on the slope (personal experience supports this).
When younger children ski their weight is not sufficient to overcome the inertia of the ski's and move them down the mountain when they lean forward, so they tend to lean backwards to encourage the 'running away' of the skis that us adults know about.
In time as they grow and get heavier their own experience on the skis should gradually move their weight forwards as they get heavy enough to overcome the inertia'
There.....now I didn't think I'd have a comment for this thread  Was it worth posting?
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| veeeight wrote: |
As the kid grows, say from 8,9 upwards (depending on individual development), they develop sufficient muscle strength for instructors ro begin encouraging a centred stance and increasingly refined motor skills through games.
This has been brought to you courtesy of the CSIA Teaching Children module. Now, who was it that boorishly once remarked that ski instruction wasn't medicine? |
Ah glad you popped in and posted that.... I knew the general idea - hence teh age question... but was not strong on teh exact details...
I was going to try placing an SOS to friends tonight if no-one else had managed to enter the detail
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, Well, I did say that I felt the explanation was analogous with the more 'in depth' explanations already posted. I liked it because it was simple to follow and did seem to have a little logic behind it. 
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| Megamum wrote: |
| rob@rar, Well, I did say that I felt the explanation was analogous with the more 'in depth' explanations already posted. I liked it because it was simple to follow and did seem to have a little logic behind it. |
The problem with the explanation is that it says that kids adopt that stance deliberately. They don't, it happens automatically for physiological reasons, so while their explanation might have sounded logical it was wrong.
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FAQ
- never been described as boorish before 