 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Meanwhile, Crystal had a dig at the BBC and its allegedly 'alarmist' reporting during the past Winter season:
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They weren't the only ones. I recall similar doom and gloom here on snowHeads...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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here is James Cove's Sunday, 17 December 2006 report from the BBC
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the picture is not as bleak as some say, with the high resorts having good conditions on some runs.
I am in the Swiss resort of Verbier and the open runs have good snow and more are set to open this weekend helped by artificial snow.
"We have many new snow-making cannons across our slopes and this has helped greatly," Pierre-Yves Deleze told the BBC.
"Some snow is forecast to fall next week and then everything should be OK. If not though, it will make us more nervous for Christmas."
'Higher ground'
The best skiing is to be found on the high resorts with glaciers: Tignes and Les Deux Alpes in France; Zermatt, Saas Fee and Verbier in Switzerland, and Obergurgl in Austria. |
And the BBC's report from 4 January 2007
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Snow finally blankets the Alps
By James Cove
BBC News, the Alps
Heavy snow is now falling across the Alps giving a much needed boost to the winter tourism industry. All the resorts are getting the benefit with snow falling down to 800 metres (2,600ft). This Christmas was one of the worst on record with very poor snowfalls.
The economic consequences for some resorts were terrible as some people cancelled their holidays and stayed at home. A handful of people have even called off their holidays later in the season on the strength of poor snow so far this winter. Many resorts could not open fully, while others relied on artificial snow.
Heavy snowfall
"We've had well over a quarter of a metre of snow in the past 24 hours and winter has now well and truly begun," Julian Griffiths, the director of the Verbier Ski School, European Snowsport told the BBC News website.
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What was that Crystal was saying, the BBC misrepresented the lack of snow and then didn't report snow when it fell? I think the BBC should think of a defamation suit against Crystal who are just spinning because they have had a bad season.
In fairness to Crystal this is a Times report and I suspect they are conflating a lot of factoids because the Times agenda is to knock the BBC and boost Sky TV.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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They weren't the only ones. I recall similar doom and gloom here on snowHeads...
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My wife is a member of snowheads for longer than me and i distinctly remember her telling about all the negativity going on.
The bottom line is it was a poor year but we all skied and look forward to a better season which is rapidly approaching
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Whitegold wrote:,
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You can download Crystal's full report on the season here. It is an excellent read, packed with stats:
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That is interesting, thanks for the link.
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Just caught up with this. It's just the usual Crystal propaganda to ram home the message that they think they are number 1 - they do it every year and the media lap it up because it is presented with authority. There is NO WAY the market grew last season - ask anybody with an interest or eyes or half a brain. The true penetration of independent travel eroding the tour op share is downplayed in the report. The AC Neilson figures "interpreted". No other tour op agrees with it. For some reason this is the second time the report has been posted on S'heads - fascinating.
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Bode Swiller, it would indeed be interesting to read a similar but less partial summary. Don't know that there is one, though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard, there isnt. The Crystal report is seen as the authority and often quoted by the press but it really is flawed/skewed in many areas.
boredsurfin, doesn't surprise me that a snow sure mega resort area would grow in a season like the last. Tumbleweed blew through many lower small resorts and the chalets of many small operators.
Most small indy retailers are in a financial mess, compounded by a poor summer outdoor season. I've spoken to distrbutors who privately tell you they are 30-40 even 50% down on pre-season sales. Ski manufactuers like Atomic have let many staff go. There is a quiet fiscal carnage going on out there yet the mighty Crystal want you to believe that they are riding high.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller, So great bargains soon to be had in all areas of Ski retail 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Looking above one can deduce that:
Montalbert=a snow sure mega resort
Note to self: Sell my 6 chalets in La Rosiere and buy in Montalbert 
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You know it makes sense.
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Frosty the Snowman, obviously it isn't a mega resort  but is connected to a mega area. I wouldn't sell up in La Rosiere as I hear it is the world's number 1 on every possible criteria. Must be true, I saw it here.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bode Swiller, I am still not sure how Crystal actually measure those who travel independently to resorts around the world, and their analysis of their prices versus LoCo carriers was self-serving tosh IMHO. And of course Crystal would be unlikely not to big-up their own business in a public document. Or is it just that the ski industry oscillates between bizarre optimism and deedless pessimism?
In the end however I guess the Market, and the Snow Gods will decide?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Whitegold, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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the Snow Gods will decide
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sadly, no. The PR machines decide. For years the power players in the industry have manipulated the facts and used media influence to change buying patterns. If, like Crystal & Thomson, your high yielding / easy-to-fill properties are in France, it would be in your interest to big up France and down play Austria (where your biggest rival Inghams has historically had a stranglehold on all the best properties). You see the lies repeated on here... Austrian resorts to low, poor snow record etc, France snow sure, high, cold blah blah. They never mention what's under the snow or the effect of being further inland. Even well-travelled national newspaper ski writers repeat the mantra. There's lies, damn lies and statistics.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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bh1, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Whitegold, i'd be interested in if there has been an increase in long haul destinations. there seemed more europeans in Whistler this year than last.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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gwaelod, as long as they are padded. Point is that Montalbert's business would be up because punters would at least be sure of snow albeit a bit of a ride away.
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| rob and sharon wrote: |
| Whitegold, i'd be interested in if there has been an increase in long haul destinations. there seemed more europeans in Whistler this year than last. |
Rob / Sharon -- The report indicates that UK trips to North America continued to increase slightly during 2006 / 2007. Your observation appears to ring true.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Just caught up with this. It's just the usual Crystal propaganda to ram home the message that they think they are number 1 - they do it every year and the media lap it up because it is presented with authority. There is NO WAY the market grew last season - ask anybody with an interest or eyes or half a brain. The true penetration of independent travel eroding the tour op share is downplayed in the report. The AC Neilson figures "interpreted". No other tour op agrees with it. For some reason this is the second time the report has been posted on S'heads - fascinating. |
What are your quantitative stats to support these qualitative observations?
How big do you quantify the total UK market at?
'No other tour op agrees with [Crystal]' -- can you give us some hard names and dates of tier-1 players who disagree?
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| Whitegold wrote: |
What are your quantitative stats to support these qualitative observations?
How big do you quantify the total UK market at?
'No other tour op agrees with [Crystal]' -- can you give us some hard names and dates of tier-1 players who disagree? |
Good to see Crystal employing people with a grasp of long words. Trouble is, nobody really knows the answer to your first 2 questions there. The Crystal Ski Industry Report is used by many as the best guess there is (because it is presented well and with authority). SKGB use it to help compile their own report, SIGB I think also used it as a basis for part of their report and even Mintel have referred to it in the past - it means that any skewed info just gets recycled until it becomes fact and the press present it as so. It isn't independent and it does cause controversy among the other tour ops and certain national tourist offices mentioned. Period.
Hard names and dates? What are you the Gestapo?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
What are your quantitative stats to support these qualitative observations?
How big do you quantify the total UK market at?
'No other tour op agrees with [Crystal]' -- can you give us some hard names and dates of tier-1 players who disagree? |
Good to see Crystal employing people with a grasp of long words. Trouble is, nobody really knows the answer to your first 2 questions there. The Crystal Ski Industry Report is used by many as the best guess there is (because it is presented well and with authority). SKGB use it to help compile their own report, SIGB I think also used it as a basis for part of their report and even Mintel have referred to it in the past - it means that any skewed info just gets recycled until it becomes fact and the press present it as so. It isn't independent and it does cause controversy among the other tour ops and certain national tourist offices mentioned. Period.
Hard names and dates? What are you the Gestapo? |
Your counter-arguments are overly emotional and factless.
The Crystal report remains the leading UK ski industry benchmark.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Whitegold, we'll keep this simple and unemotional then . Are you really trying to convince us that the UK market GREW by 3% in season 06/07? Secondly, how is the figure for independent travel arrived at? I vant zee names und zee numbers ja!
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You know it makes sense.
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How do they know about independants? I can't remember the last time I used a TO and nobody has asked me where/why I went.
There must be loads of people missing from these stats
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gwaelod wrote:
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How did Crystal make me one of the 376,000...
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It does say at the start of the report where the statistics were obtained from, and they do say the figures are not absolute. If no other organisation produces a report it is going to be "the" industry report, biased or not.
I have no doubt some of it is guesswork slanted towards Crystal/Thomson/Tui. Who can challenge it?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Whitegold, so you work for Crystal?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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gwaelod, the report says there's around a million low cost flights to ski airports (presumably Geneva, Zurich, Turin, Munich, Salzburg, Bergamo, Lyon etc etc). If you assume that the majority of indy skiers fly these days and use low cost, are they really saying that perhaps 20-30% of the occupants on these flights are all skiers and boarders? All a bit far fetched to me.
Anyway, whilst in the gym I got thinking about all this (saddo) and concluded that it isn't a proper industry report (well, not like any from any other industry I've seen) and that's because there is no substantive vital statistics... fiscal matters mainly. There was price cutting carnage going on after the press reports dissed the season, charter flights "consolidated" all over the place, whole properties taken off sale. None of this stuff is reflected. Growing by 3% (there's a laugh) is all very well but not terribly impressive if at a huge loss.
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Bode Swiller, So get on and produce a report, you appear to have a good grasp of the actualite of last season, you could have it published by Friday
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boredsurfin, Ease up on the pressure, I'm inventing facts 'n figures as fast as I can
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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boredsurfin, what is an actualite?
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FAQ
) and we are due to complete on a place in Arc 2000 that will be completed for 2008/2009. 2 storey/3 bed apartment. Its snow sure, high and the lanchettes chairlift will be outside the front door.
Haven't Easyjet increased the number of flights this year into ski regions and the number of airports they are flying to? They would not have done that on the basis of 17% load factors. They know their market and they know it is and has grown by more than 5%.
