 Poster: A snowHead
|
When I observe skiers from the lift, one of the striking things I notice is how many rush the top of their turns. What I'm referring to is the habit most skiers have of aggressively tossing their ski tails out to the side at the start of their turns. This tendency is usually born of a desperate desire to escape falling victim to the horrors that are believed to await those who flirt with the dreaded falline.
This tail tossing move at the beginning of a turn is called a pivot. A pivot is defined as the manual twisting of the skis into a new direction when the skis are un-weighted. While pivoting is a valuable skill to have (for use during specific situations) too many skiers rely on it as their only option. The result of a pivot is a comma shape turn in which the first half of the total direction change (initiation to falline) happens much faster than the second half (falline to completion). This inconsistent rate of direction change introduces a flow killing interruption into each new turn.
This is a great technical area to address. Playing with turn shape is an excellent means of overcoming the falline fears that foster those pivoted comma turns. Reversing the pattern by making the initiation to falline portion of the change of direction happen much slower than the falline to completion portion can expand a persons understanding on how speed control can be achieved in the second half of a turn. This is a new concept to most habitual pivoters, which allows them to leave their previous fear of the falline behind. Suddenly the falline is transformed from a monster to be avoided, to a ride that can be enjoyed. Speed picks up, provides a thrill, then can be tempered as desired at the bottom of the turn.
This simple line alteration discovery can pave the way for even greater forward strides later. It provides a much more refined feel and usage of the ski's edge and sidecut. It's also the first step on the way to carving and arc to arc turns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
FastMan, good thoughts.
| Quote: |
This tail tossing move at the beginning of a turn is called a pivot.
|
Even worse, it normally manifests itself as a pivot about the tips (front) of the skis, usually indicative of the skier standing on their heels (balance aft) - and "pushing" or "flicking" their heels from side to side.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
veeeight, I have heard it described as skiing like a happy dog!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
This has got me thinking a bit - there are surely a lot of situations where tail pushing is useful e.g tightish trees but on an open piste is the real reason lack of confidence?
As a further analysis question is rooster-tailing evidence of tail pushing or do can twin tips produce a degree of rooster without major technical defeiciency?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
fatbob, I think that rooster-tailing is due to the edge being engaged (when in firmer snow), or just by plain skiing in softer stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
FastMan, Last set of lessons I was in did a fair bit of work tring to get uniformity of movement throughout the turn. IMHO as this is practissed the enjoyment and control (and style  ) goes up and the effort required goes down. It is as you say a lack of confidence that can often contribute to the rushing at the start of the turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Good thoughts - something I have been thinking about in my skiing recently and it's always good to have a reminder
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FastMan, would you have any video clips - perhaps one of a "good" turn, and one of a "bad" (if possible a demonstration turn by the same person)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
fatbob, To answer your questions in reverse:
Tail roostering on twip tips happens whether you're riding a flat ski or an edged ski, so is not an indicator of any technical analysis. It's just the way snow behaves (flow) due to the design of the tail of the ski.
As for tail pushing, it's pretty much the equivalent of driving your (rear engined) car around and changing direction by yanking on the handbrake. To quote Bob Barnes:
"As always, there are few bad moves, but there are bad habits. Pushing your tails out into a skid is a defensive move, a braking move. If you need brakes, it's the way to go. But braking is a bad habit. Skiing is about gliding. Good turns are not about braking--they're about going where you want to go, about controlling your line, rather than your speed. In that regard, pushing your tails out is, indeed, a bad move.
On the other hand, real skiing does involve braking, probably more than many skiers would care to admit. Even racers brake, just as they do in cars. Skiing is full of situations where a little judicious braking is key. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Just don't confuse it with turning!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Why turn at all? What's wrong with the fall line?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
This was always a problem for me as I tended to rush the start of my turns. Thanks to Charlotte at the PSB last year, I'm now a lot further along the road to eradicating it. The fall line is your friend 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, I have quite an embarassing video of me doing "Snowheads wall" taken by easiski where I am doing a very impressive display of:
1. tail pushing
2. arm flapping
I am not sure whether I can bring myself to post it 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I like to wash the tails every now and again but it isn't because of a rushed entry into the turn if I understand this.
I do it to tighten a turn and it is almost a drill. That is not to say that it doesn't creep in inadvertantly from time to time and you can easily get the feel that it is happening but there really isn't much of an excuse for it on a wide piste otherwise. It is probably a hangover from a little hop turn that you need in steeper stuff for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
FastMan, "What's the rush?"
For sure. Sometimes it's about having patience, giving the ski's chance to do their job and yourself time to feel for what's going on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I'm still a bit confused by the idea that people start the turn by tail pushing. While I can think of circumstnces where I would definitly do it e.g. trying to spray mates with snow or attempting (and failing) badly to execute a tail slash on a snowboard I would have thought it generally comes at the end of the turn as people are panicked by the fall-ine and/or speed pick up.
Thinking of a good and poor snowboard turn; in a good one weight stays on the lead foot, the rider controls edge pressure between heel & toe and the board rails round. In a poor one the rider doesn't commit enough weight forward or have fine foot steering sussed so the board kind of does its own thing by mid turn and the rider then kicks the back foot round to complete. Is skiing radically different?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
fatbob, I guess it would be like actively kicking the rear of the board around with the back leg.
I recently saw a beginner being taught snowplough turns and the instructor kept telling them to 'slide your heel out'. Not an ideal start.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
i find it's a hangover from the old school technique of unweighting to start the turn
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Arno, another can of worms  Unweighting (up, down, or terrain) is not a crime, even in todays "modern" technique.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
veeeight, it's all about doing it in the right time and the right place?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Pushing your tails out into a skid is a defensive move, a braking move.
...
Just don't confuse it with turning!"
|
| David Murdoch wrote: |
| Why turn at all? What's wrong with the fall line? |
Exactly! I bet if you ask most beginers, they'd say the whole purpose of turning is indeed to slow down! So what's so bad about an effective braking move?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arno, or you could look at it as correlated but without a causal link. One obvious factor in common is the great huge lever-back of the plastic ski boot. So handy and available to large muscles to use for panic stops.
abc, a world of people equipped with nothing but hammers. The funny thing is, I see drivers who can't turn a car without braking, riders who can't turn a bike without braking, skaters, ...but you get the point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Arno, Yep! Part of the issue is that people don't return to "neutral" properly - they rush from one set of edges to another, without the appropriate transition (whatever that may be for that situation).
(More on unweighting on Skiing Myth #1)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
abc, a world of people equipped with nothing but hammers. The funny thing is, I see drivers who can't turn a car without braking, riders who can't turn a bike without braking, skaters, ...but you get the point. |
No, I don't (get the point).
For the majority of skiers, skiing is simply about moving around the mountain. So an effective braking move that controls speed AND direction seems a perfectly adequate tool. In other words, if skiing IS about getting the nails into the wood, a hammer is indeed the best tool.
Turning without braking, being it in cars, bikes, or skis, is not NECESSARY for many. In fact, for those who don't race, it may well be a good question as to what's so wrong about scrubbing off a lot of speed BEFORE the turn? In other words, "what's the rush (of carrying the speed through the turn)?".
Skiing technique, as taught in many ski school, unfortunately focus PURELY on specific "moves". Right now, it's all the rage about "carving", as though it's a be-all-end-all move. I do have my thoughts on why it's important to control speed without "tail tossing". But I like to wait to hear it from the instructors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
Skiing technique, as taught in many ski school, unfortunately focus PURELY on specific "moves".
|
Only ski school systems with movement based methodologies. The CSIA, APSI, NZSIA for example do not rely on a movement based methodology.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Are you sure it's a 'rush' or hurry-up thing that's motivating it?
I suspect that for quite a lot of people the turn initiation is just a brutal power-move.
So, slide, slide, slide....*YANK AND TURN*, slide, slide, slide, *YANK AND TURN*
(It wasn't too long ago that I did that.)
It's easy, obvious and works. (ish)
The patience you need to let your skis start to turn requires you first of all realise that you should be being patient.
Then it requires self-control to allow the skis to move by themselves - Dave Grogan ran us through a lot of this last ESA and got us to start the carve in the top half of the turn.
The main problem for me was that I'm used to doing speed control there so it wasn't habitual to do speed control in the bottom half of the turn. With all that patience and no braking it got quite fast and wide...
*SOB*, I want to go skiing every weekend *SOB* 
Phew, better now...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| abc wrote: |
| In other words, "what's the rush (of carrying the speed through the turn)?". |
Other than:
- Being able to turn instead of static re-pointing.
- Avoidance of rushed -actions- of braking, re-pointing, re-acceleration, therefore also avoiding a sizeable fatigue
- Access to lines not available otherwise, therefore less poling/traversing/whatever, including more safety in traffic through more options
- Allowing better braking OR re-pointing by not making ski/bike/car do both at the same time with limited purchase (therefore not whingeing about ice)
?
Can't think of any reason. Well, except the pure curmudgeonly contrariness of not allowing the task to be defined by the tool. And except for the plain fun rush.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| abc wrote: |
For the majority of skiers, skiing is simply about moving around the mountain. So an effective braking move that controls speed AND direction seems a perfectly adequate tool. In other words, if skiing IS about getting the nails into the wood, a hammer is indeed the best tool.
. |
It is more like having a tool (skis) like a hammer and trying to use it like a screwdriver... If your default movement is a turn initiated using a heel push then the chance of using your skis efficiently when you are able to is slim...
Moving around the mountain is possible much of the time simply using direction control to control speed... why would you put in a heap of physical effort and be less efficient? Unless it was part of some weird diet program where you try to burn as many calories as possible
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
I recently saw a beginner being taught snowplough turns and the instructor kept telling them to 'slide your heel out'. Not an ideal start. |
Just out of interest, how would you get a beginner sliding on parallel skis to form a snowplough and what would you ask them to do to intitiate a snowplough turn?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| FastMan, would you have any video clips - perhaps one of a "good" turn, and one of a "bad" (if possible a demonstration turn by the same person) |
Here's one Little Tiger dug up out of the ashes for us. Shows pretty clearly the tail push we're talking about. This skier has a definite falline aversion, and the aggressive tail tossing (and stemming) she uses on the steeps carries over on the flats.
http://media.putfile.com/SM-N
I'll look around for a clip that shows non rushed initiations. I have plenty I could show in which the skier is carving, but I'd like to find one in which the skier is steering.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
FastMan, thanks. I find words + images works best for me.
lbt, fast and wide? ... now where's that video of you in the 1/2 pipe? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Yoda, I'd move from one to the other when appropriate and keep it very simple. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
FastMan, the video was a nice illustration of your point. I too see a lot of peeps who throw their hips around in an attempt to initiate turns and get very skiddy at the top. Not being sexist but they tend to be women. is it a physiological wider hips thing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Haven't been able to view the vid yet..... a gorilla with hips...??
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
Not being sexist but they tend to be women. is it a physiological wider hips thing?
|
Maybe because guys simply go stragith down and don't make half as many turns as women?
Kidding aside, I read somewhere women on average have weaker muscle around their knee so balancing ski on the edge are more difficult for women...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, I see plenty of men doing it... and many would swear they are high level skiers.... I skied behind one recently ... but not for long, because every time he initiated a "turn" he sprayed the fresh snow everywhere... in the same snow, same run, Fastman was chucking up nothing (I followed him too)..... That guy had a "turn" pattern that involved a pivot redirection and then pretty straight run, followed by another pivot, straightish run.... no arcs there! but he was fast to the lift - so must be an expert
When you consider it is a very common movement pattern amongst skiers on the slopes, and male skiers outnumber female by a significant amount, I don't think you can put it down to hips...
That woman I found is just a very classic example of the "fall-line fear" ... you can easily spot the fear of fall-line... it can often be more subtle tail push like the guy I followed - you would need to be watching his movement pattern to spot it...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
