 Poster: A snowHead
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I am planning a ski holiday based in Bourg St Maurice with a group of good skiers, skiing the whole area off-piste (Tignes/Val d'Ise, St Foy, La Rosierre, Les Arcs/La Plagne). I have previously skied Val d'Isere off piste with a Top Ski or Alpine Experience guides but not for some years.
A friend who is going on the holiday has strongly recomended Chris Harrop who lives in St Foy and, he says, knows the whole area extremely well, has a minibus and has given him the best skiing he has ever had.
The thing is I now discover he is not a qualified UIAGM guide but has British and French ski teaching qualifications (I gather he is a very good teacher with strongly dissident opinions on current practice). However now I think about it the Zimmer brothers, who run TopSki and used to guide the top ability off-piste groups, are also not UIAGM qualified.
I think I am right in saying that non-UIAGM guides are not qualified to guide on glaciers (except marked routes), but it is my memory that they do guide on glaciers.
Does anyone know the legal position or have any thoughts?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowball, If you want advice, and a local contact for next season then PM BernardC. He has done the last 2 seasons in the area, and I suspect is in for a 3rd. He has made extensive use of guides....... and is a very nice bloke to boot.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowball wrote: |
| I think I am right in saying that non-UIAGM guides are not qualified to guide on glaciers (except marked routes) |
That's my understanding but would be interested if someone can clarify further. I don't think you would be risking prosecution by hiring someone like this, although they would be breaking the law (assuming our understanding is correct). I suppose there is a question as to whether this would have any effect on your insurance if there was an accident.
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I was given the impression that to guide or instruct on non-pisted glacial terrain you had to be UIAGM qualified, certainly in terms of liability and so on. I think if you are ISIA/ISTD you can instruct off piste but not on glacier terrain
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Arno wrote: |
| I suppose there is a question as to whether this would have any effect on your insurance if there was an accident. |
Ski Club insurance covers me off-piste even without a guide, but I doubt that the guide's own insurance would cover us (or him) - certainly not if it involved a crevasse. But what if we had an accident on a glacier but the accident was nothing to do with it being a glacier?
As I mentioned, the Zimmer brothers were not, I think, UIAGM but I remember crossing glaciers with them, and in their senior position they must have thought about this.
I suppose it is relevant that there is not much in the way of crevassed glacier skiing in the area, except the Grande Motte.
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I think that you would be covered for rescue but would probably have a good case against the 'guide' for working beyond the remits of his qualification. He would be looking at prosecution and possibly a civil case from yourself?? Not that I am in any way informed of the intricacies of French law
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snowball, A fully qualified ski teacher ( ISTD British or Moniteur Diplome French) can lead off piste in all terrain but not on glaciers. This is to say they can teach on glaciers but not off piste. In all other terrain they can legally operate but without the frequent use of Alpinism (climbing using crampons/ice axe etc).They are legal to undertake short tours on skins and can use a rope to provide support in unforeseen situations.
ISIA qualified (not in France) can take groups off piste within the resort boundary on marked routes. (provided they have passed the mandatory off piste training course, this is not the case with ALL ISIA qualified instructors)
If your off piste excursions are more about the skiing than the ski mountaineering then a ski teacher should be fine. If you are looking for dedicated ski touring then a IFMGA guide would be better.
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Only Qualified Mountain Guides are allowed to take "paying" Clients over non lift served Glacier Terrain in France.I found myself in exactly the same situation last year when I wanted to venture to the Glaciers with my ESF private instuctor and pressured him to do so.
The Problem is exactly what BGA quotes if we were to have an accident of any kind he would be in trouble for working beyond the remits of his qualifications.
They may however do it depending on how well they know you trust you know your ability etc but it would proberly on the understanding that you are skiing together as friends you understand the risks fully and if something does go wrong you are not a paying client.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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xxx
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 17-07-07 16:50; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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snowball, there are 2 UIAGM guides working for the ESF in La Rosiere, they know the entire area, hey are available for Ski Randonee throughout the Haute Tarentaise and they are employed on any helicopter trips, you'll probably find that EVO2 and the IESF based in La Rosiere can offer similar facilities but I've no experience of them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What's the French Diplome National Brevet d’Etat Ski Alpin?
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snowball,
I would think the Rutour galcier would be on your list and I'd go UIAGM for those trips. If you don't know this guy personally then why not mix and match it.
BernardC would indeed know a few faces but you need to decide whether you want to find the great local stashes with someone who knows or whether you want the insurance of UIAGM.
Personally, if I knew the guy, I'd go with his knowledge but if you need the security, then get UIAGM.
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You know it makes sense.
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Why not ring the guy and see what he has to say - maybe he acknowledges he doesn't guide on glaciers and has some workarounds or an alternate he subs with for those days.
I'd have thought if he is the sort of guy you want he won't mind being up front about it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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BGA,Diplome National Brevet d’Etat Ski Alpin This qualification is the full ski teachers diploma in France.
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Poster: A snowHead
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been thinking about this and I'd be pretty wary of hiring someone with "just" a ski instructor's qualification, particularly for the types of stuff snowball skis. there are lots of ski instructors who are very able alpinists, know all about glacier travel and so on. But they have learnt this in their own time - the badge isn't a guarantee that they have attained a certain level, like it is for a guide. So I guess it's a case of doing a bit more homework on these guys.
I guess my view is that if I have booked someone well in advance and in preference to a UIAGM guide, I'd be really annoyed if the we found ourselves in a situation where he's saying, "that is a really good run, but i'm not allowed to take you there".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think in many case people book a guide when what they need is an instructor, and also may book an instructor when what they really want is a guide! Its going to be based on what you want out of the day. If you are competent off piste skiers and you want adventure that may include some alpinism then a guide with the IFMGA ( UIAGM) qualification is wise. However, if you are desire to learn or improve your off piste skiing then an instructor (with off piste qualifications) would be best. Guides are not ski teachers, therefore not the best people to "teach" you off piste skiing skills. Guides are however, highly experienced mountaineers and their skills will cover a wide range of situations you may encounter in the back country.
Its worth noting that fully qualified ski teachers who are part of the Euro group will have to attend and pass 2 off piste modules both lasting a week with logged ski touring experience in between the courses. BASI will only exempt fully qualified IFMGA guides from these modules. The trainers and examiners of these modules are IFMGA guides.
Most of the off piste "lessons" sold through a ski school are aimed at people who need "coaching". Their desire is to improve the turns they make but under safe guidance. The two professions definitely have an overlap. Its just a case of understanding where that overlap is.
The only British fully qualified IFMGA guide who is also a fully qualified ski teacher (ISTD) is Graham Austick www.pistetopowder.com
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| elbrus wrote: |
The only British fully qualified IFMGA guide who is also a fully qualified ski teacher (ISTD) is Graham Austick www.pistetopowder.com |
I can also reccommend Francois Grain, who is French but speaks fluent English. Both a UIAGM guide and ski teacher
http://www.poudre-glace.com
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yes, Arno, I take your point. It is actually one guy loosely attached to the ski school. It seems he has made a lot of money building chalets in the area and only still teaches and guides because he enjoys it. (not sure if you looked at Chris's "review" six posts up - this was echoed by my friend who has skied with him and will be one of the group).
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 18-07-07 9:53; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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elbrus, I have skied with Graham for two holidays and much enjoyed his style. That's the kind of guide I'm looking for but, of course, he lives in St Anton. Well, up to now he has, but in future he will be spending much of his time setting up a new venture in Norway.
Where is Francois Grain based, davidof?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| elbrus wrote: |
I think in many case people book a guide when what they need is an instructor, and also may book an instructor when what they really want is a guide! Its going to be based on what you want out of the day. If you are competent off piste skiers and you want adventure that may include some alpinism then a guide with the IFMGA ( UIAGM) qualification is wise. However, if you are desire to learn or improve your off piste skiing then an instructor (with off piste qualifications) would be best. Guides are not ski teachers, therefore not the best people to "teach" you off piste skiing skills. Guides are however, highly experienced mountaineers and their skills will cover a wide range of situations you may encounter in the back country.
Its worth noting that fully qualified ski teachers who are part of the Euro group will have to attend and pass 2 off piste modules both lasting a week with logged ski touring experience in between the courses. BASI will only exempt fully qualified IFMGA guides from these modules. The trainers and examiners of these modules are IFMGA guides.
Most of the off piste "lessons" sold through a ski school are aimed at people who need "coaching". Their desire is to improve the turns they make but under safe guidance. The two professions definitely have an overlap. Its just a case of understanding where that overlap is.
The only British fully qualified IFMGA guide who is also a fully qualified ski teacher (ISTD) is Graham Austick www.pistetopowder.com |
agree with all of this. I take your point about what instructors need to do, but if that is all they have done, they will be much less experienced off piste than me so, from a safety point of view, they wouldn't add much to my experience. i have no doubt they could teach me a thing or two about ski technique, of course. as you say, horses for courses
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Arno, For yourself, in that case I would seek out a IFMGA guide who is also an instructor (if you want some coaching points). You are probay in the upper end of the clients who are seeking this kind of service. Most people would fall in to the " I need to learn to ski off piste" bracket I think. I know lots of people who have disappointing days out with a guide because they didn't get any instruction. They basically have purchased the wrong products because they assumed off piste was always a guides domain. Its this overlap of the professions that doesn't seem clear (to the clients).
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| JT wrote: |
snowball,
I would think the Rutour galcier would be on your list |
Where is the Rutour Glacier? Is it Heli skiing? I'm hoping the 6 resorts will provide enough without needing Heli as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowball, The rutour glacier will bring you out in the villages of La Mirrour and La missure ( both spelt wrong) Just by the village of St Foy. You will access it from the Italian side and probaly need a heli lift unless you skin.
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I thought heliskiing wasn't allowed in France?
I did three heli-trips last season where we had the best of both worlds - an instructor and a UIAGM guide. Cost implications aside this is definitely a great option. The instructor and guide can work together to find the best terrain, and the instructor can concentrate on your skiing without worrying so much about 'guiding' the party safely. As long as the guide and instructor get on and know where the boundaries are - ie whatever the guide says goes in terms of route selection - then it works very well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Following on from elbrus's 10:17 BST post, and while it's not relevant to snowball - but for anyone else reading this who is developing their off-piste skills I'd just like to plug Snoworks' Backcountry courses. You get the best of both worlds there - alternating days with Mountain Guides and top-quality instructors. Only downside is you leave wanting a second week (and I don't normally have time to squeeze that in). Wot BGA said is also good - by chance we also had that one day on my first snoworks course (one 'trainee'  needing to get her touring hours up).
Back on topic though, I've only ever had one non-UIAGM guide (he was an Austrian Schiefuehrer) and was not at all happy with him - he gave an intro to touring to some of our group that was downright dangerous on several counts. One exception does not make a rule, but no UIAGM guide would have made any of the mistakes he made over that trip.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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GrahamN, On the Schifurher qualification. The SF is actually a qualification that bridges the gap between ski teacher and guide. SFs are legal to guide on glaciers in Austria. The SF course is actually the same course as the IFMGA guides (they do it together). Its the "skiing part" of the full guides qualification. Full guides then go on to do all the other stuff (climbing etc.). Sounds like it was just a case of a s***t guide. He would have had the same training as the IFMGA in terms of off piste skiing touring etc!
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snowball, you can skin up to the Ruitor glacier, Simon Atkinson the adjutant of the ESF brigade in La Rsoiere is a keen ski-tourer and takes parties up there, there's a 20km descent which finishes at La Mirrour. It's best accessed by heli-copter from the Col de Petit St Bernard, there's a link to heli-skiing from our website www.tracksvacations.com we offer ski-randonee in conjunction with the ESF La Rosiere where you can go to a different off-piste area in the Haute Tarentaise every day.
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You know it makes sense.
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| snowball wrote: |
elbrus, I have skied with Graham for two holidays and much enjoyed his style. That's the kind of guide I'm looking for but, of course, he lives in St Anton. Well, up to now he has, but in future he will be spending much of his time setting up a new venture in Norway.
Where is Francois Grain based, davidof? |
he lives in the Vercors... but last winter worked for one of the ski schools in Courchevel.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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BGA, it isn't but you can heli-ski from La Rosiere, which is right on the Italian border, the pick-up point at the Col de Petit St Bernard is closer to La Rosiere than it is to La Thuile. The ski domain the Espace San Bernado is shared between France and Italy on a single lift pass.
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowball,
As David says re the Rutour Glacier. I have had my eye on it for a few season now and from what I can glean from snippets, there are many ways down depending on you and your party. I hope to do it with BC this year.
The whole point of all this is that you want something out of the ordinary...as do we all.. so whoever you engage, you should talk to them prior and discuss what you want to do. We have spent an evening with the guide telling him our route and the day was a fabulous education in all sorts of ways but the skiing....!! Pretty technical and down right scary in places and not at all on the tourist routes. I wouldn't swap it, but you get the jist.
If you can decide what sort of routes you have in mind you can pick both guys but I do think a personal recommendation is a very good thing...IF..the criteria of those trips with that guy matches your own.
It sounds like a nice trip...I am getting all envious. I will certainly get down there for a few days
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have emaied Chris to get his response about this.
JT, yes, should be good and since we are staying in Bourg (La Petite Auberge - nice restaurant ) and going out on the change-in-Paris version of Snow Train it will also be cheap.
This is the third week I have organised for next season for a group of friends who are all good skiers. As the group grew it went up from one to two and this year three.
The holiday guided by Zebulon Roche is so popular everyone wants to go on it, fairly regardless of where we go: which is becoming a problem. Last few years were Haute Maurienne (his home) twice, Dolomites and Verbier, next season Montgenevre (Milky Way plus option of Serre Chevalier and La Grave). Soon we will run out of new places he knows well. The other holiday is Engelberg with Fredi Krummenacher (last year St Anton with Graham Austick).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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norris, The first one reminds me of the story someone told me about a couple on a heli drop in poor visibility. Last time she saw him. They had all been told to get out on the left but he got out on the right and was never seen again.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 19-07-07 14:42; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The Italian Pilot flew his heli like they drive their cars! Somewhat disconcerning when landing on a ridge with a gale force wind blowing over it, we had to make 2 or 3 attempts just to get on the ground. My friend who is not a great fan of flying was looking rather green at this stage
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Looking at the prices of Chris Harrop, a days guided skiing is 425 euros! This seems pretty steep to me for a non -UIAGM guide?
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hmmmm we went direct and paid 280 eu for UIAGM last year in Le Grave, so I would agree this looks heavy from here.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes we paid similar through La Grave Guides Bureau, although Chamonix guides seem to charge more at around 350 a day..
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norris, I don't think I've ever paid more than €300 going through AIGMB, and I think the only time I've paid more than €300/day is going through ChamEx.
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FAQ
