How many types of turn are there?

A snowHead

OK, hard hat on, head above parapet, get ready to be shot at...and go:

I think there are lots of different types of turn which are fairly distinct from one another. Now I know no-one who can actually ski would agree with me. They all either tell me that there's only one kind of turn or that there are an infinite number, a continuously variable blend of pressure/edge/turning to suit speed/line/conditions/terrain. Well ballcocks to that; neither answer is useful to me.

So in my skiing - not necessarily consistently: I can rail on ankles and knees, and carve with more outside leg extension and inside leg retraction. They're different. In powder I can bounce with my feet pretty well together and I can do Phil Smith's pressure turns. They're different. I can do short swings and I can crossunder short turns. They're different. I can stand tall and flow down with my feet together, expending little effort and I can flow rhythmically doing a goalkeeper and concentrate on pressuring the outside ski with my feet hip width. I can do a braquage and side-scrape turn in the bumps and very occasionally I've been able to get into the zone and bounce off them. They're different. They all feel distinctly different - posture, ski weighting, initiation etc. So my question is: is there a way of classifying these turns. Am I just confusing myself. Or is it that I need to get onto a higher plane, a skiing nirvana when it'll all come together, all become clear?

A snowHead

consider how you steer your car? In wet - dry - ice - dust- good road surface - bad road surface- tight bends - long swooping bends and so on and on and on. There as many turns as conditions you wish to STEER in! In terms of phases, skiers are in a plough phase ( with many variations) then, as they ski faster and gain confidence, they will balance against the outer ski earlier. In doing this they will begin to do something with the other ski ( with or without coaching depending on their threshhold to speed and line) they are then in a plough parallel phase. In this phase the skis are sometimes in a plough and sometimes the skis are parallel to each other. the blend of how much ( plough and parallel) will depend on where they are in that phase. Once again, in that phase skiers will perform many types of PP turns. the parallel phase is the same. In fact many top end skiers dont have the skis parallel to each other and the edges may change at slightly different times in the arc (not simultaneous). When a racer sets of down a course his/her aim is to get to the bottom asap. The focus will not be on "what turns" but more " efficient outcomes". To answer your question, thousands!

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slikedges,

hmmmm would this be why I'm taught skills not turns??? Nah...... silly me that would make one a versatile and adaptable skier who could lay over carves(elbow to snow) their first hours on carve skis after learning on old ones, not get hung up trying....

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slikedges, I'm really sorry, that I don't have the time at the moment to sit and think about a suitable reply, as you clearly more something more difinitive. I think the problem is perhaps that you want skiing to be neatly organised like surgery, whereas it is really just of the edge of chaos! If this thread is still going in a couple of weeks, I promise I'll give it some serious thought. I could name a few turns, but I know you want more info. Very Happy

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slikedges, Reading your post again. I would say skiers are in a plough phase, plough parallel phase, parallel phase and beyond parallel phase. In those 4 phases there would be many "types" of turn, however each type would belong in a phase group. Your email also indicates that you have a very "input focus". That is to say you focus on movements and techniques. Have you considerd a more skill ( application of technique) and output focus?

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edit - you know I mean technique!

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elbrus, if you hit the scissors you can fix it

After all it is free

little tiger, thank you. I am new to all this!

slikedges,

Have you ever managed two identical turns? i.e Exactly the same terrain/speed/arc length/snow texture etc? The answer must be NO.

Therefore this is why, as Little Tiger, says good instructors teach SKILLS not TURNS Little Angel

SKILLS are the secret to improvement & development not Turns !!

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stewart woodward, that's not in dispute, however just as leaves are blended in a predetermined recipe to produce particularly prized labels of tea, a particular mix of skills produces particularly prized types of turn, those that are a common denominator, used by many experts in the same way in the same situation. You look down a mountain, a given slope, a given set of conditions, you see some people go down, a few with great aplomb - then it strikes you, there's something familiar, that movement, you've seen it before, maybe not just then, but before, the same movement, a different person but the same turn in the same place, so effective and so right.

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slikedges, I'll jump in (with my flack jacket on)...
There are three distinct ways to make a ski turn:

1. Edging
2. Pressure
3. Rotating

The "skill" is the ability to blend them to the optimum level.

The other way to look at it...

There are right turns, and there are left turns.
Everything else isn't turning.

How long is a string? wink

You know it makes sense.

slikedges, what you are watching are efficient skiers who, after many trials, are blending the steering elements to reach the most effective outcome. The most effective outcome may be common in the fact that similar movements create that outcome ie they all appear to be making the same type of movements to reach it ( the outcome)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

elbrus, don't people actually just choose a turn to do (which has a preset blend of steering skills, a particular set of posture/balance/movement/rhythm) to go with whatever speed/line they wish to take, then adjust with a little more of whatever's needed depending on exact conditions and terrain? After all, I swim, run, hop, skip and jump by a blend of skill movements, and simply perform these actions by choosing the one I want with little reference to the underlying skills, adjusting for the appropriate circumstance.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

veeeight, oh yes. Well spotted. Thanks for pointing that out.

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elbrus,

you have the editing sorted now Very Happy

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slikedges, I think we all call on pre learned techniques (movement patterns that lead to predictable outcomes) in many ways. However, the terrain we apply them in is multi dimensional and we measure success by results (outcomes). Example: You can take 5 skiers and they can all have a successful outcome skiing waist deep powder, however, they may have all used different applications. Varied applications with a similar end result.

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slikedges, you're getting on to the stuff elbrus was talking about the other day regarding unconscious competence. Good skiers (so I'm told) don't "think" about the turn they are going to make, they just do it.

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little tiger, getting to grips with this. Thanks for the tip ( I will need further coaching)!

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Wear The Fox Hat, I think that's true only to the extent that they don't need to think about how they're going to do the turn. However, don't all skiers and maybe especially the good skiers look down a slope and think about how they want to ski it (what speed and line) then do the prelearned turn they know to achieve that? Surely they're not thinking "ok, needing a blend of early edge (30%), progressive pressure (50%), rotation to the end (20%) here"? As they output their chosen turn they then automatically adjust the body management, steering and flow elements they need for the exact conditions and terrain encountered. Little Angel

So far whilst I've been posting here I've picked up snowplough turns - I know what these are and can use them, Parallel turns - I know what these are and am learning to use them, carved turns - these seem to be special parallel turns that utilise the shape of these little curved skis to cut an arc into the side of the mountain - it may have been WTFH gave me the analogy of the bendy ruler round the moutain - as far as I can see all carved turns are parallel, but not all parallel turns are carved turns yes/no?, then there is this term 'stem' turns which I've still not fully understood. Thank you for asking the question slikedges, I shall follow the answers with interest.

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Its like a lot of things burned into memory..... you only need to think about it if you aren't confident you can do it.

A golf swing might be another example in that there are lots of technical elements involved and when things go wrong, you have to think about this part of the swing and that part to get it back on track. Of course, you need to understand what you are trying to do to rescue these situations. It's funny how almost all practise swings are better than the real one... Laughing

There is too much happening in skiing to be thinking, press that, tilt this... am I here, do I want to be there? You'd like to get to a state where you are thinking about the terrain coming up rather than what your body is doing.

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slikedges, yes. But i find almost any slope will throw somthing into the mix that i will need to make a concious input to manage. I just expect that as I get better I will be running more on subcontious autopilot.
And then there's somthing fun about doing the total unexpected, like trying a few turns on the outside edges. Or on both edges of the same ski.
I may even master more than 2 turns going backwards one day. snowHead

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Or taking a mougl field by slamming across the peaks as if they wernt there. I actually did this on a black in La Plagne, but didnt intend to. My brother was filming it too.
Yes, he did get the crash that happend after a couple of 'turns' Embarassed

I was proud to have held it together for so long.

lampbus, I tend to associate it with my fencing training... you need to learn to do BOTH... people who rely on reflex alone are predictable - they will ALWAYS do the same thing... so you then set them up for circumstances to let their reflex take over - but as you know just what they will do they are walking into a trap you have set. Interestingly it seems most folks would just continue to repeat their reflex movement while you hit them over and over....
You need to train your mind to overcome the reflexes... eg to be able to set a defence mechanism you wish in place in your mind and have your body perform it for you. The body "just does it on auto" but the mind has preprogrammed what it wishes...

I think you need this skill as well as inbuilt reactions... but have no idea what you would call it... It really allows you to enter "THE ZONE" because you hand all over to the body as you program

You know it makes sense.

lampbus, totally agree about any slope throwing something at you, and yes, you might indeed think ok, less equal weighting, wider stance, more edging, press harder, rotate more at end or whatever, but you wouldn't usually just start down then decide what to do once you're already on it, would you?, you'd still have chosen a turn type to start off with Very Happy

easiski, quite right, all partitioned off and heirarchical, that's how I like it - I'll look forward to your thoughts!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Here's one for the list: the "worm turn" invented by Wayne Wong in the early 70s. Also, the "wong banger", pictured here:
http://img.timeinc.net/wmiller/higherground/photos/wwongt.jpg

A snowHead

Martin Bell, Wayne Wong - major ski hero. Very Happy

slikedges, No, we don't think about it (how to ski a particular slope) - that's the point. We might do a particular sort of run for a particular reason, but if just skiing along, then I would say it's all whatever occurs naturally. Very Happy

A snowHead

slikedges,

I'd agree with easiski, Its there, you just do it, no need to worry about colours of pistes or whatever, more if you fancy the terrain.

It is only when the confidence is wavering on something that really concentrates the mind....like a fall here is NOT a good idea. That is where is it most important to have a turn that you know works...the so called banker turn again..!!

In that case, I'll be thinking something like edge set...bounce a bit, pole and then shout 'up' as I try to get the skis around..thats the kind of process but you don't have to talk yourself literally all the way through that... Laughing

but you might be thinking this snow is heavy, etc

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, JT everyone has a signature turn, a turn they revert to if just hooning around, they then naturally change to a more suitable turn as conditions/terrain dictate, but surely part of the fun of skiing is varying your turns, choosing to ski given slope/conditions in a particular manner of your choice? I like looking down a slope and thinking for instance nice bit of snow near the edge, so fall-line, short skiddy relaxed or maybe howsabout some longer radius tall banked turns over the whole slope or maybe just the usual medium radius big on the edge. I've been thinking it could be partly because of what JT says in his next but last post - I'm still not totally confident of being able to do each consistently at will, so still want to keep doing them. However I'd like to think that even when I feel more confident/consistent I'd still do the different turns and enjoy the feeling each offers me. Or am I just special, like my mom always said? wink

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slikedges, I don't think you're any more (or less) special than me. Enjoy the turns you do.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Martin Bell, easiski, A Wayne Wong inspired Worm Turn
here Laughing

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slikedges, We know our steering element are pressure, edge and rotation. We know to influence these elements you need to make movements that are co-ordinated and more effective with good posture and balance. If we use parallel skiing for this example, we know that the order of the elements is likely to be pressure first ( rather than rotation in a turn that begins with a plough/stem). The amount of pressure in relation to edge or rotation is what we could look at as the blend. Do I press allot? should I tilt the ski further to create a bigger edge angle (and press less)? What about overriding these elements with bigger rotary movements? These decisions will be based on the speed and terrain I wish to ski in and the result I desire. i.e. skiing very steep terrain I may have more rotary in the blend. Skiing through heavy s***t, that blend will trip me up, so I reduce the rotary and blend in some more pressure control and so on.

Another example. You freeskiing down a mountain with your chosen "turns", suddenly a child skis across your path! What do you do? You adjust the blend, deflect and change your line and away you go (you missed that child by the way)! But the question is, what did you do to make that adjustment? You changed the blend to continue on your way. The mountains, snow and environment we ski in is so multi dimensional that we cant use a one dimensional method to be effective within it.

As a loose model I categorise as the following:

To ski fast in arcs there is normally quite allot of edge in the blend.

To ski at medium speeds, or through varied snow, there is normally a greater influence with pressure control.

To ski safe and in control in steep terrain, I would use more rotary in the blend.

That's a basic model, but it does break things down a little further.

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veeeight, Martin Bell, A seasoned La Grave Professional demonstrates the correct method of the "Worm Turn" (thanks for posting the original worm turn) Laughing

http://youtube.com/v/-UglrXO3GNk&mode=related&search=

What about the dumbest turn ever invented, Martin Heckleman's "jet turn" anyone have any footage of that one?

rob@rar, that sounds just the same to me, apart from semantics. You choose fast/slow, fall-line or wide, I choose carved or skidded, short or long. I believe you too are choosing a specific learned pattern. We each then change rhythm and steering and balance depending on what we encounter on the journey.

rob@rar, elbrus, Let me backtrack a little: I'm not saying that skills aren't important or that they're not the building blocks. Lord knows I've learnt they are. What I'm saying is that nevertheless the skills come together in several commonly used blends, and it is these blends that we recognise as particular patterns or types of turn that we each do all the time, the ones that you recognise on the mountain as a gs, short carved, wedel or short swing or the way the ESF guys and gals drift/float/flow down the slope. I'm sure if I watched either of you I wouldn't just see irregular turns, each an original and unique blend of steering skills, I think I'd see you do basically the same turn as the other good skiers have chosen down the slope, classifiable if we but tried. Confused

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How many types of turn are there?

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