 Poster: A snowHead
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Do ski instructors have recent current experience. And is their qualification reviewed by periodically their peers? The question comes as a result of a discussion elsewhere. FWIW, I hope the answer is 'yes' to both questions - we punters don't want out of date instruction form someone not skiing at his best.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, We do have to be "recycled" from time to time, but they can't take away our qualifications, in the same way that you can't remove a degree from someone if they're out of date. The courses are run by the governing bodies with training by their regular trainers - no our peers, our superiors! What do you mean by current experience? There are loads of BASI peeps who hardly teach from one year to the next but still run around (especially Grade 3s) talking about being ski instructors.
The sad thing is that many of the "old guard" and even some younger ones (there's a girl at the ESF here who can't be 40 yet) go to the courses and then go back and continue with their old school stuff as before. It's not always a question of age. I had a long conversation with an old ESF and ENSA guy last year who was decrying just this - he was nearly 70!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, Fascinating answer. Pilots, including flying instructors, have to submit themselves for review - and their right to fly/instruct can be removed if they are not up to scratch. The 'recycling' sounds encouraging though. The gent concerned stated that as he had passed their exam (I think in the 70s) he was still a BASI qualified instructor. I hope that what you said means that, until he had been 'recycled' he could not instruct.
Obviously, it would be an extreme case of someone who hadn't skied for years and needed a few bob just pitched up and took unwitting punters under his wing. But I can see problems if someone had perhaps skied only recreationally for a while took it into his head to be a full-blown instructor without refresher training. And of course I would hope that modern technique was insisted on. Otherwise it would be a bit like a pilot being taught that the only way to loose height on approach was to sideslip like a WWI biplane. Which would be exciting for the passengers.
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achilles, BASI issue your license annually - you have to have attended a refresher course at the required time in order to receive a license. It's worth remembering that although we like to bang on about 'modern' ski techniques.. there's a lot that hasn't changed. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ski, Well, I am just a lay punter, of course. I do remember when carving skis were fairly new that Alan McGarry would not teach a class until all had carving skis. So something has changed. And, skiing with easiski and some guides, the emphasis has been on transition, not down, plant the pole, stand up. So quite a bit has changed, in the way my head gets around this. Of course, edges are still put in for grip, I still traverse the way I did. And, dare, I say it, I will still throw in the old snow plough as in days of old.
Anyway, it seems that the key is not so much that instructors are qualified, but whether they are licensed - which automatically takes into account qualification, but also makes sure they have had refresher training.
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Sort of following on from that. Chatting to someone (not easiski) at LDA, there seems to be a sort of up-or-out system operating with BASI these days. In other words, after passing at the entry level, one then goes on to take the next level, after gaining experience, and so on until the highest level is reached. If one does not go through the process to the top level then eventually one can no longer instruct (presumably the licence is not renewed) is that the case?
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achilles, As long as you keep attending refresher courses, and have a valid first aid, you're OK.
If you want to teach in France, then you need to be aiming at the top qualification - so BASI are quite keen on encouraging people through the system... and selling courses of course !
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ski, thanks, that clears things up. Quite an expensive to set yourself up, I think. I'm grateful you guys go in for it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, medics are having to move towards revalidation and recertification, probably a good idea although intimidatingly beurocratic. Two things will be involved as part of it:
Peer review of practice
Customer (patient) feedback
Does any of that happen for ski instructors, and does it vary from country to country? I know its a regular part of classroom teaching.
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Martin Nicholas, AFAIK none of that happens anywhere.
achilles, ski, Certainly, until recently BASI didn't actually follow through on the threat to not relicence you if you didn't attend a revalidation. I attended 2 and they were a total waste of time. Aimed for the most part at part time grade 3s and with no actual feedback on one's own skiing from the trainer. The ESI one was much better and longer, although still without feedback and/or instruction. I did them Sat/Sun with Alan Hole and Stewart Adamson a few years ago, and the interesting thing was that we had Ali Ross on the BASI one and Philippe Raoux on the ESI one - both legends in their own lifetime in the world of ski teaching. More to learn from them than from the trainers.
I am no longer a member of BASI (why pay for nothing), but am looking forward to the next ESI recyclage.
The ESF run their own training and do a whole week at the start of the season every year (well, here anyway). They do make a huge effort to make sure everyone's up to date and so on - pity the can't/won't police it later. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| Ski instructors aren't medics ! But having said that - the schools I've worked for all solicit feedback from group leaders about instructional staff - but this has been done by the ski school not the licensing body. |
Review by a more senior instructor of an instructor taking a normal class, and student feed back on the training, became a standard feature at an establishment I belonged to. A bit disconcerting when it was introduced - but done properly, it was valuable for keeping instructional technique up to scratch - and was good quality control. And yes, the student comment could and did influence events. That said, I wanted to find out what did happen with ski instructors, rather than what maybe ideal. It does seem the examining bodies are making an effort - and the better schools are adding to that. As for instructors who feature on snowheads - well, I've noticed we are pretty good at giving student feedback - at least where the experience has been positive.
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You know it makes sense.
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| easiski wrote: |
| ...I did them Sat/Sun with Alan Hole and Stewart Adamson a few years ago, and the interesting thing was that we had Ali Ross on the BASI one and Philippe Raoux on the ESI one - both legends in their own lifetime in the world of ski teaching. More to learn from them than from the trainers... |
I would love to see a wet behind the ears (ok a BASI trainer won't be *that* wet behind the ears...) BASI trainer telling Stuart Adamson what to do 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FYI for BASI the refresher is every three years and most first aid certs are good for three years as well.
achilles, the "up and out" you refer to is not down to BASI but rather the french system. After gaining your ISIA license (grade 2) you can work in france for 3 years as a "stagiaire" (trainee) while training to pass the eurotest. If you dont pass the eurotest you cant work in france anymore but your BASI license is still valid and you can work elsewhere.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| easiski wrote: |
| Certainly, until recently BASI didn't actually follow through on the threat to not relicence you if you didn't attend a revalidation. |
The problem would be if you had to make a claim against your BASI insurance 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As part of your annual subscription to CSIA you are entitled to half a day of instruction/advice on the latest teaching techniques and CSIA policy. The trainer who runs the course (PDP) assess you and then updates your records in head office. On several occasions the half day has been extended to almost a whole day because everybody (including the trainer) was having so much fun.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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BASI require a person with the ski instructor award to re validate every 3 years. If you hold an ISIA qualification you need to do 1 day every year ( or 2 days every 2 years) These are the new ISIA rules. ISIA also plan to bring in a new system with 2 tiers. ISIA stamp (silver) awarded to instructors who meet the minimum standards for ISIA and hold the region/national award ( in that members federation) and ISIA PRO card for instructors who hold the top qualification (ISTD in BASI terms)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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cathy, well, I didn't mention a name, because I really didn't want to influence answers here. And, although the discussion elsewhere triggered this post, I really was a bit concerned by the I'm still BASI qualified. I passed their exam! statement. These days when I potter out with an instructor, I make darn sure I am going with someone who has been recommended to me. Better still, I seek out easiski, whose style suits me - even if I do get told off  . But not everybody has that luxury - especially when they start. On the whole, I have found the answers here reassuring.
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JT, well easiski is winning the battle to sort out my skiing better than anyone else has. But others have instructors that work for them - Warren Smith has his fans, for example. However, we can't all rely on such folk. Maybe the methodology could improve further, but it's good to see there are formal systems for reviewing the licences of those who qualified to instruct way back.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Now then Swifty, hows your foot? Ive finally worked out how to use this sight, Fantastico? I can say from years of skiing with easiski what a spankinly fine skier and teacher she is. Worth every bit of her grd 1 status. I used to work in Scotland years ago as an unqulified. Teaching absolute beginners. I didn't do such a bad job. There were a number of qualifieds at the time that I thaught were a little pants. It is true that with qualifieds or not qualifieds you will get good and bad. However, due to the time money and dedication needed to get to the top of any of the systems, the odds of finding a bad highly qualified are small. Even if they qualified along time ago they had to be seriously good to get there. So unless you are an amasingly advanced, odds are they will teach you something good. Now that said who do I need to call about going to Milton Keynes tomorrow?
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Welcome to stainforth2, just turn up at MK tomorrow and tell them on the desk you've come for the snowHeads skitest - they'll point you in the right direction.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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halfhand, is responsibility to learn with the teacher......or the learner? Its got to be both I guess. The point I am making is to learn anything the learner needs to make a change in the their behaviour. Only they can do that ( inspiration from a good teacher helps)!
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elbrus, Surely there is no responsibility to learn but there is a responsibility to ensure that you teach competently to accepted practice (as a teacher you must be fit for purpose?) but the desire to learn has got to come from the learner not the teacher surely?
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You know it makes sense.
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halfhand, With you on that. But learning requires a change in behaviour from the learner. A teacher can guide you to the areas that will most develop your performance BUT only the learner can make the required changes. If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got. The responsibility to learn shifts as performers move through the development phases. (no implying this is you) learners often pin their failures on the fact that the teacher didn't teach them (true in many cases) but how many learners question their own willingness to make change? Not many I imagine. this is because when a person buys a ski lesson they assume the teacher will "make them ski better". Only the learner can make themselves ski better. (I may have been reading too many books)!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| halfhand wrote: |
achilles, I too have just made the connect.... You mischevious devil you!  |
Moi? 
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| ....... So whilst there may need to be refreshers for instructors |
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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....Hence if you qualified in '73 why can't you claim to be able to teach to the standard in 2007? am I making sense?  |
Not entirely. Firstly, if you had qualified in the 70s, but hadn't skied for a number of years, I would not be too keen on you pitching up as an instructor without some check by a currently practising instructor first. And, secondly, various instructors have said to me that technique has changed with the advent of carving skis - and from my experience, that is so, particularly with regard to transition into turns. If an instructor's technique has developed along with best current practice since the 70s, then his or her experience must be a huge asset. But if the technique taught is still the same, I'd rather have someone recently qualified, I think.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"there was nothing fundamentally different in what he said compared to what my last instructor said 12 years ago"
halfhand, but what if you had turned up for your lesson and said "I want to learn how to railslide"?
I'll wager there weren't many skiers asking that of their instructors 12 years ago...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks easiski, glad I made it on here, I will do my best not to spend too much timeon my back bottom tomorow. Thanks ill turn up tomorow, hangover permitting, just got in. Hmm wish I had a kebab right now, Anyway, to my way of thinking, the onus is always on the learner to learn. I feel there is far too much abdication of responsibility these days. When I was skiing years ago, I always felt it was my responsibility to make my skiing better, and I would talk to lots of people to find out how. But never did I make it their responsibility to make me better. That would be a complete cop out.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Given the number of armchair experts on this forum regularly dishing out skiing advice, I'm surprised that the topic of a real instructor's skiing qualifications and validations appears to be of importance . 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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veeeight, Good point - but it is important because of the advice given on another forum by someone who maintains an air of expertise based on a rather old qualification, some teaching experience 30 years ago, and who will not disclose when/where he last skiied to anyone. I think Achilles was genuinely trying to understand whether someone who hadn't taught or had lessons or appraisal for many years could still legitimately wave their qualification as proof of expertise, particularly as skiing techniques - and one suspects the ways of teaching them - have moved on.
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This thread was triggered as a result of a discussion elsewhere. The question was not raised on that forum, because AFIK it does not have the instructor population that snowheads has. So the best chance of getting definitive answers was here. I did not intend the whole original argument from the other forum to come spilling over into here - and I don't think that's happened. I hope the discussion has been interesting to other snowheads - it has been for me.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 24-06-07 9:12; edited 1 time in total
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stoatsbrother, and the answer is: NO. And that is why we have such tough exams nowadays - to shut up these embarassing and inexpert idiots. Mind you I don't know which other forum - but the principal is there nonetheless.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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veeeight, that's the kind of post that kills a forum - "don't post unless you really know about it and are prepared to present your credentials", people being scared into not posting their opinion on something they may well know quite a lot about despite a lack qualifications. Skiing isn't medicine. There is no exclusive body of knowledge in anything like the same terms and this is a public punters ski forum, not a ski instructors convention. It'd be insulting the intelligence of snowHeads to presume they don't know the difference between the casual opinion of like-minded individuals and paying for a private lesson from an instructor of repute. AFAIK the only ISTD who posts here regularly is easiski and the only ones who teach high level skiing on snow regularly are easiski and (I presume) yourself. Of course Martin Bell's and Fastman's posts are always hugely valuable and influential but unfortunately they are relatively infrequent contributors (and apologies if I've missed any others out). Anyway as far as I've noticed people don't tend to post on technique as such (by which I mean analysis and solution), but what similar problems they've encountered themselves, what they did that worked and on drills one might try instead. I suspect most of the world's best skiers and ski coaches aren't even ski instructors - and, from what I'm told, there are quite a few skiers on here who are better than the lesser qualified instructors! 
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slikedges, So many errors, so little time.
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