 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all,
I need some advice regarding which N.A. resort to choose for a group of 6-8 people with mixed skiing abilities (everything from expert to beginner). We have been to many of the best European resorts (Espace Killy, Trois Vallees, Zermatt, Verbier...) and now want to experience N.A. skiing.
Late February/ early March 2008 may be the only opportunity to do so in the next few years. I have narrowed it down to the following resorts,
1. Whistler (Vancouver**)
2. Vail (Denver*)
3. Heavenly Tahoe (San Francisco***)
4. Banff (Calgary*)
None of them seems to match all criteria I´m looking for:
Necessary:
- combination of 9 days skiing (if more than one resort, then only daytrips) and 3 days city trip (the stars mark my rating rof these cities)
Very Important:
- size and variety of the resort
- off-piste options
- weather (snow quality -> "champagne powder", sunshine hours/ clear days on average)
Other relevant factors:
- Evening entertainment
- Accomodation options (condos/chalets)
- Landscape/ Scenery/ Nice village
- No rental car required
I´m currently slightly favouring Whistler, because it seems to have everything but the weather (significant risk of rain, snow quality). Unfortunately I can't get any information on average clear days/sunshine hours in comparison to Tahoe/Vail/Banff. I know the weather is always unpredictable, but I would prefer one of the other three resorts, if there is a good chance that we will get significantly more sunny days and/or top quality powder at the end of February/beginning of March. I know sun and fresh snow is a bit of an oxymoron, but I try to get the best of both worlds, as beginners/intermediates won't enjoy foggy/cloudy conditions.
I´ll be happy for any piece of advice you can provide,
thanks a lot in advance,
daweste
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Why no rental cars?
It's a bit like going to Rome for a week but insisting only eating nothing but sushi for the duration of the trip.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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daweste, welcome to 
I've not skiied Banff, but you've got a good list to start off with.
Whistler or Tahoe would be my choice. Then again, I've only been in Denver with work so I haven't done much touristy stuff around it.
Vancouver is a beautiful city. Whistler is a great ski are, and has good nightlife. But no other resorts near by.
South Lake Tahoe (i.e. Heavenly) will give you nightlife and skiing. You've also got options of going to other resorts, should you so desire - Kirkwood is worth a visit since it is not too far away.
No problems with off-piste options at any of your choices, likewise the conditions should be good.
Accomodation is more likely to be in a hotel/condo than a chalet.
If Vancouver wins it on the city, Heavenly wins it on the view from the top. It's breathtaking.
Not sure if any of that helps at all!
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Also, I'm not a big fan of Vail. For a single resort holiday, it may get a bit confining for all 9 days. I think Whistler would be a better choice, despite the slight uncertainty on snow quality.
Why have you skipped over Alta/Snowbird? There're 4 resorts in the Little Cottonwood Canyon that can be reached by shuttle bus from Salt Lake City. Also, Salt Lake City probably have more "city tour" potential than Denver, too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
favouring Whistler, because it seems to have everything but the weather
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If you're going March then the likelyhood of sun is increased, as opposed to going Dec/Jan/Feb.
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Your requirements pretty much describe Aspen. Between Aspen Mountain, Aspen Highlands, and Snowmass you've got more varied skiing for 9 days than anywhere and Aspen is a beautiful town with lots of night life. I've been lucky enough to ski all over North America and Europe too, and based upon my experience, Aspen is the best place in North America for an all around holiday. It's the place most like the best European resorts, but with a special, historic American feel.
If the city thing is really important San Francisco is just great. The ski places you have to hit up at Tahoe are Heavenly, Squaw Valley, Alpine Meadows, and Kirkwood.
Strangely, I haven't been to Whistler because the all around experience at places like Chamonix, Val d'Isere, Verbier, St. Anton, and Monterosa just have a strong hold on me and from a North American perspective Whistler seems very much similar with out the exciting European ambiance that draws my friends and me.
No matter where you go, except Whistler probably, you should really consider a rental car. It's a car culture over here and public transport for the most part is not so good.
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| abc wrote: |
Why no rental cars?
It's a bit like going to Rome for a week but insisting only eating nothing but sushi for the duration of the trip. |
Spot on. Absolutely missing the point if you're sticking to the European "stay in one place/walk to the lifts" model except maybe in Whistler.
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Thanks a lot for all the good advice. Regarding a rental car, this is one of the "soft" factors. From a European perspective (especially as we prefer the Franch Alps) driving between resorts is not ideal and cost is a minor issue, too. But, of course, if we went to a place like Tahoe, we would certainly rent a car to be able to check out the different resorts while being based at Heavenly.
I haven´t checked out Snowbird/Alta yet, its less often listed among the top 5 places of N.A., but Salt Lake City would be definitely more interesting than Denver (esp. from a cultural perspective). I think I'll have to do some more research in this regard.
Are chances for a few sunny days considerably better in Tahoe, Snowbird, Aspen, Vail than in Whistler? And, as some of us may stay for another week to see some more of the country, is it too much of a gamble weatherwise to visit Las Vegas/Grand Canyon (from Utah/Colorado) etc. or to travel down the coast from S.F. to San Diego in the second week of March?
Again, thank you for any input, I really appreciate it,
regards
daweste
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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daweste, never been to Denver, but SLC far from a great city IMHO. Do not let that put you off the general (Utah) area though! If you do a wee SHs search you'll find lots of food for thought. Why do you need 3 days in a city on a ski holiday anyway?
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Because some of the less experienced skiers need a little add-on to get convinced going all the (more expensive) way to North America for a skiing holiday, when the Alps are just a few hours away...and I'm also very interested in travelling and would find at least S.F. and Vancouver to be interesting enough to cut off some skiing days.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| daweste wrote: |
| Because some of the less experienced skiers need a little add-on to get convinced going all the (more expensive) way to North America for a skiing holiday, when the Alps are just a few hours away...and I'm also very interested in travelling and would find at least S.F. and Vancouver to be interesting enough to cut off some skiing days. |
So its between the 2 then - Vancouver & Whistler you can get away without a car but Tahoe & SF are both pretty spread out & cars are pretty much essential. Plus if you can handle the drive you can go into Yosemite which is beautiful in winter if not wholly open.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Even Salt Lake City doesn't really warrant 3 days city tour. 3 day in Denver will be REALLY stretching it.
Skiing-wise, you're likely to get lots of sun in March. As well as lots of snow usually.
Second week of March non-skiing touring will strongly favors southern California. It's the best time of year for that part of the country. Warm, sunny, and very little crowd.
Las Vagas is easier to reach from Tahoe or Salt Lake City. Colorado is quite a long way away. Grand Canyon is likely to be still snow covered in much of March.
In general, if you're going touring afterwards, stick to the states so that you can shoot south to the more interesting and warmer places for generally pleasent touring. Depending on what you fancy as "part of the country", Salt Lake City is rising up fast in its potentials. Utah has 5 national parks. And a few more right outside of its boarder.
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Your conundrum has been well summed up. What makes SF and Vancouver such wonderful cities, is the same factor that makes the Tahoe and Whistler skiing more of a gamble, weatherwise, than CO or UT: the proximity of the Pacific ocean.
During the whole of the 6 winters that I lived in Vail, it rained at resort level (between December and March) about 3 times. It was such a rare occurrence that it always got a mention in the local paper. In Tahoe or Whistler, you have a massively higher chance of rain.
But I would certainly rather spend 3 days in SF or Vancouver than Denver...
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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daweste, have a look at ski miquel http://www.miquelhols.co.uk/ for Whistler, tagged with an option for a couple of days in Vancouver. You will get every king of weather but it ticks all the other boxes. I've no assoc. with ski miguel by the way. Great hol but crap admin beforehand when I went with them.
No rental car = forget Heavenly (great scenery, boring nightlife) and probably avoid Banff, great night life but a lot of coach travel, which gets to be a pain. To be honest it's got to be Whistler or Vail.
I suspect for the best snow you want Vail but I haven't been so can't comment.
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Poster: A snowHead
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daweste,
Some thoughts regarding Alta/Snowbird and Salt Lake City. Alta and Snowbird are located in Little Cottonwood Canyon. Solitude and Brighton are located in Big Cottonwood Canyon. The roads between SLC and these ski areas are generally kept clear but they can be closed during heavy snowfalls. All can be easily reached from Salt Lake City. There are lodges at Alta and Snowbird, some quite luxorious, that provide lodging, meals, etc. But there is very little else up in the Canyon. It's fine if you want to ski and sit by the fire in the evening. But there is very little in the way of other nightlife or entertainment options up in the canyons. There are lots of inexpensive lodging options, many with ski packages, in the SLC area. Many are in the Sandy or Midvale (suburban SLC) areas which are near the entrences to the cottonwood canyons. But these are American suburbs that bear no resemblence to ski villages. There are malls, and car dealerships, and lots of fast food joints, etc. Downtown SLC has far more dining options and there is the Morman Tabernacle and all that stuff to tour, but I really don't find SLC at all charming. Park City, on the other hand, is a terrific base. Park City has lots of excellent dining and nightlife options. It's sort of sin city of Utah. There are 3 ski areas in Park City -- Deer Valley, Park City Mountain Resort, and The Canyons. In my opinion, the skiing and scenery is better in the cottonwood canyons. We've stayed near The Canyons and skied at Alta -- it's approximately a 55 minute drive and you miss most of the nasy SLC traffic. There are also shuttles that can be hired to take people from the Park City area to the cottonwoods canyons resorts, and they aren't horribly expensive. Also, there are a couple of other places that often get missed. These are Snowbasin and Powder Mountain. Snowbasin held the Olympic downhill events, offers excellent skiing, a very modern lift system, lodges that have to be seen to be believed, great food (perhaps not as over the top as Deer Valley), and generally small crowds. Powder Mountain is a completely retro area with few lifts, the lifts that they have are mostly old and slow, and the lodges are nothing to write home about. But, there are about 5500 acreas of sking, mostly off piste and much of it only accessible by hiking, or by snow cat, or by helicopter. And lots of relatively low angle off piste. And never any crowds. If the snow is good, it's really a fun place to ski. In terms of snow quality and quantity, the cottonwoods canyons average around 500" / year; that's where the "greatest snow on earth" motto comes from. The resorts in Park City are a bit lower and more likely to have poorer snow conditions. Snowbasin and Powder mountain average around 400" and are more likely to get slushy earlier in the spring. So when we return to UT we'll either try to do it on the cheap and stay down in Sandy, or base ourselves in the Park City area. From Park City you have reasonable access to 9 different ski areas ( a bit less than an hour to the four cottonwoods canyons resorts) and maybe 1.5 hours to Snowbasin and Powder Mountain. I do think a car is very useful in Utah. I think the Aspen suggestion is very good, and the Whistler suggestion as well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The flight time from Salt Lake City to San Francisco on a direct flight seems to be under 2 hours. It will be longer than that driving from San Francisco to Tahoe . So skiing Utah and having a few days in SF may take a bit more organising but it is by no means impossible. I imagine that United Vacations for example can route you from the UK to Salt Lake City maybe via Chicago on the way out and home via SF with a stop over there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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abc,
yes that is what I meant.
True, the security etc will add to the time of any flight, but as you say the road time to Tahoe could be extended in bad weather and is likely to be 3-4 hours with moderate traffic and good weather in any event.
I was just showing that Utah may be an option even allowing for a desire to spend some time in SF.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting question.
I spent a day or two in Denver years ago (and also used to support the Broncos in the John Elway days). Don't bother stopping there.
I would say SF or Vancouver. I do like Vancouver a lot - even in the rain, never been to SF.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks for all the great information!
I`m actually strongly favouring Salt Lake City now, as it appears to be the best choice weather-/snowwise. It also would give a skiing experience totally different from Europe (hopping between resorts/staying in town) which sounds more and more attractive to me. On top you get either the chance to combine it with a flight to San Francisco or to do a short trip to Las Vegas via Bryce Canyon NP/Zion NP.
I'm inclined to do the latter as I understand these NPs, although not fully accessible, will be open and worthwile even in March. A day or two in Las Vegas and a stay in SLC would be sufficient from a "city-tour" perspective. Staying in SLC makes the most sense to me, as Park City is the only resort looking attractive enough to be based at, but would be inconvenient skiing-wise, as it is quite a way from the most interesting resorts, i.e. Snowbird/Alta/Solitude/Snowbasin.
I'm now trying to find a nice place to stay in the vicinity of SLC, situated near the access roads to the skiing resorts. As I'm really impressed with the scenery of SLC, we'd like to stay somewhere with a view of both downtown and the mountains. I´m considering the Marriot University Plaza or the Skyline Inn (as a cheaper alternative). We will most likely rent cars (I guess 4wd is the way to go, as we won't get winter tyres with a rental car). Any opinions on these places? Other recommendations? Are there any condos or townhouses to be rent with a nice view downtown (it is kind of hard to tell from searching the internet, whether you can get downtown views from Cottonwood Heights/Sandy/Midvale)?
regards,
daweste
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Whistler for Canada.
Aspen for the West.
Killington for the East.
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No-one should fly the Atlantic to ski the East coast unless you've git a business trip etc to Boston.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| No-one should fly the Atlantic to ski the East coast unless you've git a business trip etc to Boston. |
Can't agree more.
I consider it something to suggest to people I dislike strongly to fly over the atlantic to ski the east! 
daweste, that's a good combination.
Of the National Parks, Arches and Bryce are the smaller but the most photogenic. Both can be access even in winter. Both are specially beautiful with snow. Very few visitors ever see those two parks with their white winter coat, and they don't know what they're missing! (I've done Bryce in winter & summer, absolutely fantastic, winter view is better than summer in my opinion!)
Zion is usually open in winter. The drive to Zion is actually as much THE highlight as the park itself!
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brian
brian
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Is Tahoe day-trippable from the Bay area (specifically the San Jose end) ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| brian wrote: |
| Is Tahoe day-trippable from the Bay area (specifically the San Jose end) ? |
Yep - lots of Bay Area people do it - but its a 5am start/late return kind of day. Kweed may be your best bet. Cairngorm or Nevis is day-trippable from Newcastle by the same criteria.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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brian, fairly hardcore for a day trip as it's about a 3h30 drive from the international airport at SF even with light traffic. You could of course take a helicopter but I understand they're not that popular with some members of this forum
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| Quote: |
Staying in SLC makes the most sense to me, as Park City is the only resort looking attractive enough to be based at, but would be inconvenient skiing-wise, as it is quite a way from the most interesting resorts, i.e. Snowbird/Alta/Solitude/Snowbasin.
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Park City is only about 45mins from SLC, and it's pretty accessible for Snowbasin, Alta and so on. SLC is a nice city and Temple Square is amazing as a piece of architecture but the 'different' rules on alcohol consumption do make it a bit limited for evening entertainment.
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brian
brian
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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brian, yup, the maggots call in Kweed.. It's definitely worth a visit.
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brian
brian
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Wear The Fox Hat, thanks. Maybe I should also invest in a phrase book 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| No-one should fly the Atlantic to ski the East coast unless you've git a business trip etc to Boston. |
I disagree.
It is only a short hop to Boston from London. No big deal. Perfectly fine for a week's vacation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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brian, I was thinking the same thing. I might just spend more time lurking on Epicski and expand my vocabulary that way
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| No-one should fly the Atlantic to ski the East coast unless you've git a business trip etc to Boston. |
I disagree.
It is only a short hop to Boston from London. No big deal. Perfectly fine for a week's vacation. |
Are you serious? Most US east coast skiers seem to head west for their "proper" vacation. For the incremental flight time from UK I'd far rather be in Denver or SLC or Reno for example.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| No-one should fly the Atlantic to ski the East coast unless you've git a business trip etc to Boston. |
I disagree.
It is only a short hop to Boston from London. No big deal. Perfectly fine for a week's vacation. |
I think Scotland is a considerably shorter "hop". Why bother crossing the pond?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
I think Scotland is a considerably shorter "hop". Why bother crossing the pond? |
Scientists have today produced a report showing that Scotland is one of the worst countries in the world. stanton will be along shortly with more information.
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| Quote: |
No-one should fly the Atlantic to ski the East coast unless you've git a business trip etc to Boston.
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I'd largely agree. There is some excellent skiing in New England but the weather is very fickle. We skied in Utah last January and the locals were really complaining about their lack of snow. Off piste conditions were definately up to par for Utah, but we still found good skiing. You can get bad conditions anywhere. Just because Alta and Snowbird average 500+ inchs of snow a year doesn't mean conditions will be perfect the week of your vacation. But you have a lot better chance than on the East Coast where rain events are not that uncommon. I'd go back to the Park City vs SLC issue again. My wife and I really don't find SLC very attractive. SLC is in the valley and when we were there in January they were having an inversion and the city was really quite smogy. And when we've been to Utah there has never been any snow down in SLC. It's pretty brown. Certainly there are some very nice attractions but it certainly doesn't offer anything resembling a ski resort feel. For us, the attraction of staying down in the valley is purely and simply economics. There are numerous places in the Sandy and Midvale areas that had ski and stay packages for around $180 US for two. These often included breakfast, choice of lift tickets to Alta, Snowbird, Brighton, or Solitude, and passes for the buses that run up to these resorts. Park City is really THE ski village in Utah. Last year we stayed in Eden, which is near Snowbasin and Powder Mountain. The skiing was great but there was absolutely nothing going on. And I mean nothing else going on. It's not a bad drive from Park City to any of the resorts in the cottonwood canyons. And the skiing in Park City is pretty extensive and very good in it's own right. Deer Valley takes great care of their pistes and has fantastic food. The Canyons and PCMR both have lots of nice terrain. That said, I think that anyone who travels to Utah to ski would be cheating themselves if they don't spend some time in the Cottonwood Canyons. The base elevations are 1000+ feet higher and you get much more of that high alpine feel. For my wife and I, there's just no place like Alta.
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brian
brian
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| Dale Goldsmith wrote: |
Scientists have today produced a report showing that Scotland is one of the worst countries in the world. |
One of the "Worst performing small countries in Western Europe" actually ... and I wouldn't exactly call the Federation of Small Businesses "scientists" either.
They compared Scotland to 9 other developed countries of similar population. Unfortunately for us, none of the other 9 live as a dependent subsidiary of a larger neighbour.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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That's a pretty good summary of skiing in Utah by RISkier. I thought the skiing at Snowbasin was excellent and that the facilities were first rate. I was sufficiently impressed that I registered an interest with a few real estate agents in the Ogden Valley area as I thought that once the moratorium on development was lifted that there would be massive development and huge profits to be made. Didn't buy anything in the end and it seems that the development never really happened. Is this still the case? I haven't been there for three years.
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brian
brian
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FAQ
