Poster: A snowHead
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CEM's thread on compensation for technique got me thinking on the relative importance of investment in different bits of kit and lessons.
Given that we all would recognise the importance to our well-bring of appropriate clothing what would you recommend folks to 'invest' in if they had a couple of hundred set aside for the purpose?
Boots , Skis , Lessons or [Edit following others observations] pre-skiing General Fitness Training?
My own priorities Have changed but after 7 or 8 weeks or so, my advice would be:-
1) Lessons - a pre-requisite to improvement and enjoyment. Put enough aside for at least 6 hrs a week.
2) Boots - the obvious investment ; but do go to a respected and recommended bootfitter ( like the Keepers or CEM ) ; the easiest way to waste money is badly-fitting boots ( I think I've 'wasted c. £700 in a couple of years). Even if you THINK yours are right go and get a second opinion from someone like them
3) Skis - shouldn't even be on the agenda until 1) and 2) are paid for ( and re-invested as appropriate). All about personal vanity.
This is of course my head talking and not my heart ! How do you see it ?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 7-06-07 21:41; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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2.5) join a gym and read Stockys fitness programme
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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4) Buy ski appartment (Or preferably Chalet)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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boredsurfin, OK,,, I'll buy yours, even for the ridiculously high price of £600....done.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Agenterre, per week, I'll bike over the contract
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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1)Boots, every time.
You can't enjoy your skiing if your feet hurt. With the right Boots that fit well, you can ski pretty much on any old planks, but not the other way around. I don't really think that there is a really bad ski on the market, plus you can always hire any ski you want pretty much.
2) Lessons, improve your skills, get the best from your equipment.
3) Skis, when you've decided what ski you like and have learnt how to use them.
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1. Lessons (with a good instructor).
2. Lessons (with a great instructor).
3. ... you get my drift.
Pain you can live with, but knowing you should be better than you are is just unbearable
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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T Bar, Let me get this right , given the time, you'd recommend that someone prioritised an extra week on the snow at the expense of 'No Lessons' and 'Hired Boots'? Different to me then.
rob@rar, Now run that past me again, I didn't understand !!
Spyderman, ...mmhh, different view to mine
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I agree with Spyderman. If your (read my) feet hurt, it doesn't matter how great the instructor is, the info will go in ear and out the other while you're concentrating on how to avoid the pain
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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boots, fitness, more time on snow.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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This only applies to the one or two week a year kind. For those skiing more, the priority changes and needs to be personalized.
1) Boot
2) Lesson
3) Snow time
4) First pair of ski
2 and 3 probably need to be repeated a few rounds. However 6 hrs/week of skiing is probably far too little for beginer and too much (boring) for intermediates.
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abc, I'm not sure that lessons ought to be distinctly broken out as an entirely separate investment, as opposed to being a -type- of snow time. I can see the reasoning if this is a purely financial thread.
If it is a purely financial thread then pre-season training surely packs better bang for the buck than first skis for instance.
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You know it makes sense.
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Agenterre,
Absolutely, for maximising enjoyment assuming that you have the basics of being able to ski a little I would take another holiday at the expense of boots or further lessons. In practice it doesn't work like that 'cos time is limited and the costs are not comparable but if I had say £400 to spend on anything to do with skiing my first choice would be a holiday. I'd happily hire boots and have no lessons if it would get me skiing when I otherwise wouldn't be.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hmm, I think we're missing the requirement for decent (and it need not be expensive) clothing and as good gloves as your hands need. I recall some of the kit (and some of it was state of the then art) that has left me wet amd miserable. A lot of it crosses over from other sports too so...decent clothing a necessity.
That aside:
Weeks 1-2....lessons
weeks 3-5....lessons, maybe boots
Assuming reasonable progress and enjoyment, next step boots
I'm still not convinced you need to buy your own skis until your doing >3 maybe 2 weeks every year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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comprex wrote: |
abc, I'm not sure that lessons ought to be distinctly broken out as an entirely separate investment, as opposed to being a -type- of snow time. I can see the reasoning if this is a purely financial thread.
If it is a purely financial thread then pre-season training surely packs better bang for the buck than first skis for instance. |
I think financial is ALWAYS part of the equation. So a pre-season 'training' lesson might very well be a good option financially.
In fact, I forgot to add some form of fitness conditioning would also make for a good components of fast improvement in skiing. Being able to stay on ski all day for a week, even at the less than efficient beginer stage, will maximize snow time while on skiing holidays.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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-"adrenalineheads" distinct from tourists and technique mongers may be gearheads but not necessary. D'ya see me huck that?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch wrote: |
Hmm, I think we're missing the requirement for decent (and it need not be expensive) clothing and as good gloves as your hands need. I recall some of the kit (and some of it was state of the then art) that has left me wet amd miserable. A lot of it crosses over from other sports too so...decent clothing a necessity.
That aside:
Weeks 1-2....lessons
weeks 3-5....lessons, maybe boots
Assuming reasonable progress and enjoyment, next step boots
I'm still not convinced you need to buy your own skis until your doing >3 maybe 2 weeks every year. |
I'm with David Murdoch... with guidance from friends my first spends re skiing were... GLOVES (good gloves - waterproof and warm), GOGGLES, neck warmer, I already had thermals and fleece and a goretex jacket... I initially borrowed pants from a friend... then purchased a cheapish pair of goretex pants - that I still use 10 years on...those pants have hiked, walked, run, skied, etc...
Then Lessons... and more lessons... got a deal on season hire of boots and skis
Next purchase BOOTS... and footbeds for same (ouch Sorefoot!!)
then ...MORE lessons...
eventually got skis(50 days a season makes this work better than season hire rates)... I skied most of my skiing life on skis purchased from instructors at end of season (my instructors would examine skis and choose me some they thought would be good value).... Most of these skis were on-sold at pretty much what they cost...
Then a pair of stocklis brought back from Europe for me by instructor...
MORE lessons
More lessons
More lessons
eventually a pair of tele skis and boots - always get skins from friends so do not own my own...
MORE lessons
overseas travel for variety of skiing
MORE LESSONS
Somewhere in there I got rollerblades and had rollerblade lessons to improve my balance, also got fitball, and planks of timber to build balance course... did balance exercises, did fitball classes at AIS, joined gym and did more core work, deep water aqua work (great core workout), did some yoga, some physio to work on alignment issues...
Summary - you can get great skis for around $200-$300 if you know what you are about(that is AUD)
If you try you can get very cheap flights and accom and lift passes (season passes reduced costs when well used)
a decent pair of boots will last quite a while
good clothes give many years of service and can be multi-purpose if you choose useful not trendy alpine stuff
Some places do a discount for bulk lessons too - I know I've got them!!!
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200 quid is probably a but light, but to get maximum gain from your instruction money find a coach / instructor / mentor to work with over the long term.
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Boots, lessons all good but I found what helped me to advance my technique was to ski with peeps who were better than me. The same for lovemaking, especially the boots!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wear The Fox Hat, The trick is to find a good one, and one that's right for - not an easy job if you are starting out.
I'm certainly not suggesting you limit your self to that one instructor exclusively, and as you become more skilled input from a variety of people with different idea's can only help. But when you are starting out I'd say continuity helps too, but it is not an easy choice.
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chris wrote: |
Boots, lessons all good but I found what helped me to advance my technique was to ski with peeps who were better than me. The same for lovemaking, especially the boots! |
I agree with the former. (Though I've no experience of your lovemaking)
Edit wink removed to avoid being misconstrued.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sat 9-06-07 16:29; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, I feel a little uneasy with you talking about 'no experience of your lovemaking' and winking at me!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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abc, I wonder if you're thinking of one 6 hour lesson (being in the States?) In Europe, 6 hours of tuition in a typical week's holiday would probably be 3 x 2 hours with practise and consolidation time in between.
I would agree with most of the posters. Many people don't take lessons because they're "happy bumbling around" or whatever. However, when they do improve their skill level they find that they can ski for longer, ski a bigger variety of terrain and snow, and thus have lots more fun. Boots though - I've done it - if you're feet are really painful it's hard to think about anything else.
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easiski, I WAS thinking about 3x2 lessons. And I felt that's not enough for beginer/early intermediate. And too much for intermediate or above who only wishes a "freshen up" at the begining of season/week. I felt private instruction work better for the later group.
Since I moved beyond the low intermediate stage, I did occasionally take lessons. But I found those short group lessons not particularly useful. Skiers at that level tend to have needs different enough from each other, a group lesson of 2 hours ended up working on some common theme that may or may not "click" on an individual. (privates are a different matter) I found half of those group lessons I did were wasted on re-hashing things I already do fine and half on things I don't have a grasp on. In the process, I picked up a lot of tidbits, which some ended up leading to bad habits, thinking I know what I'm doing! Only occasionally I picked up something that's actually useful, and without me expanding it into yet another bad habits.
A more typical "American approach" for skier seriously wishing to improve significantly beyond intermediate level tend to be full day(s) (or at least half day ~3hr for at least a good 2-3 days in a row) "clinics", with the rest of the season to gain experience on whatever they learn, which tend to be quite often terrain specific topics (ice, steep, trees, bumps, etc.).
Granted, UK skiers have their skiing holidays structured a little differently. I always live near snow. So most of my buddies ski lots and lots of weekends. I can see most UK skiers tend to do week long holidays.
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You know it makes sense.
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abc, No - not group lessons. In europe you can't get just 2 or 3 group lessons - they are every day for a whole week. I think those of us from this side of the pond were thinking of private lessons.
I like a day in between though for intermediates + so they can practise, do their homework and then be ready to move on (hopefully) in the next lesson. Of course if they're determined to book daily lessons I wouldn't refuse ...... I also think that on 1-1 more than 1.5 hours is a waste of time as no-one can concentrate sufficiently for that length of time. More than one person then it's another matter.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, here is a question: are there thresholds of usefulness in lesson times? You can teach me something in an hour, fine. You can teach me something in a 3 or 4 hour lesson day, fine. Can you teach me something in a 3 day programme that you cannot teach me in 3 one-day programmes?
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, in that case (private), you're absolutely right there's no need for a whole day instruction. And I also agree a day in between is best for consolidating what's learn into one's own.
Although at MSB, the 1.5 hr private lesson I took, I wished it were 2hr. Because first the instrutor had to un-do some of my bad habits before moving on to the task in hand that's the topic of the day: powder. So at the end of the one and half hour, I was BEGINING to get the hang of it and could use another run or two of the "follow-me" type of "pratice".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, D'you reckon MA videos help? I'm not convinced the quality is always high enough...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Murdoch, I think they can be useful, because it is one thing to have one person comment on seeing you ski once, but it is another to have a group of people be able to analyse the same set of turns and try to work out what is going on, and what could be improved.
If the quality is really poor (youtube, et al), then the best you might be able to get is about general body positioning, but if it's good, then there is potential for a lot more.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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MA videos...??? missed that... but any video should help, even your own. I've just spent the weekend well, sunday, going through all our stuff and then we put on Warren Miller's 'Storm' and then Warren Smith's..er, 'How to do it' and all were good value. Of course, you get get yourself into lots of trouble as it's interpretation. For example, I didn't have a clue what the last video was talking about with so and so buzz words, but once you saw the drill, you knew exactly what he was getting at. But... you can't start clueless, you must know what the ski can do and what benefits of a good stance can do and then you should be able to relate that to your own videos and pick out the flaws. It almost made me want to book a week on snow there and then.
But... if you don't understand what you are trying to do, then you'll just have to have someone ram into your head, day in, day out. And another thing...we never practise, so discipline is another plus
Review, practise and discilpline ....not a mantra I do...but the thought is there...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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a quote from Fastman... but pertinent to the subject
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The more you've thought and trained in the past, the more amazing becomes the experience of not thinking in the present.
Great skiers know a sense of freedom and oneness with the mountain average skiers never will.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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They are all equally important.
But if you force me to prioritize, it has to be:
1. Boots.
2. Skis.
3. Lessons.
Boots and skis are tangible.
Lessons are intangible.
The right equipment is critical. It maximizes the benefit from lessons.
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easiski wrote: |
I like a day in between though for intermediates + so they can practise, do their homework and then be ready to move on (hopefully) in the next lesson. Of course if they're determined to book daily lessons I wouldn't refuse ...... I also think that on 1-1 more than 1.5 hours is a waste of time as no-one can concentrate sufficiently for that length of time. More than one person then it's another matter. |
Credit due. Top advice. Arguably unethical in parts, but top advice, nonetheless.
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Unethical?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Whitegold wrote: |
Arguably unethical in parts, but top advice, nonetheless. |
That's a bit harsh, sometimes you have to give the customer what they want even if it isn't what they need
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Unethical is when the customer ask to have his toe chopped off in order to fit in the boot, and got it done.
To offer unneeded lesson when the customer insist is just good business.
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