Investing in Improvement of Enjoyment & Technique

A snowHead

CEM's thread on compensation for technique got me thinking on the relative importance of investment in different bits of kit and lessons.

Given that we all would recognise the importance to our well-bring of appropriate clothing what would you recommend folks to 'invest' in if they had a couple of hundred set aside for the purpose?

Boots , Skis , Lessons or [Edit following others observations] pre-skiing General Fitness Training?

My own priorities Have changed but after 7 or 8 weeks or so, my advice would be:-

1) Lessons - a pre-requisite to improvement and enjoyment. Put enough aside for at least 6 hrs a week.

2) Boots - the obvious investment ; but do go to a respected and recommended bootfitter ( like the Keepers or CEM ) ; the easiest way to waste money is badly-fitting boots ( I think I've 'wasted c. £700 in a couple of years). Even if you THINK yours are right go and get a second opinion from someone like them

3) Skis - shouldn't even be on the agenda until 1) and 2) are paid for ( and re-invested as appropriate). All about personal vanity.

This is of course my head talking and not my heart ! How do you see it ?

A snowHead

2.5) join a gym and read Stockys fitness programme Toofy Grin

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

4) Buy ski appartment (Or preferably Chalet)

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boredsurfin, OK,,, I'll buy yours, even for the ridiculously high price of £600....done. wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Agenterre, per week, I'll bike over the contract Very Happy

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1)Boots, every time.
You can't enjoy your skiing if your feet hurt. With the right Boots that fit well, you can ski pretty much on any old planks, but not the other way around. I don't really think that there is a really bad ski on the market, plus you can always hire any ski you want pretty much.

2) Lessons, improve your skills, get the best from your equipment.

3) Skis, when you've decided what ski you like and have learnt how to use them.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

If you have a few hundred quid to spend another ski trip never goes amiss in my experience snowHead

After all it is free

1. Lessons (with a good instructor).
2. Lessons (with a great instructor).
3. ... you get my drift.

Pain you can live with, but knowing you should be better than you are is just unbearable Wink

T Bar, Let me get this right , given the time, you'd recommend that someone prioritised an extra week on the snow at the expense of 'No Lessons' and 'Hired Boots'? Different to me then.

rob@rar, Now run that past me again, I didn't understand !! wink

Spyderman, ...mmhh, different view to mine

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I agree with Spyderman. If your (read my) feet hurt, it doesn't matter how great the instructor is, the info will go in ear and out the other while you're concentrating on how to avoid the pain

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boots, fitness, more time on snow.

snow reports

This only applies to the one or two week a year kind. For those skiing more, the priority changes and needs to be personalized.

1) Boot
2) Lesson
3) Snow time
4) First pair of ski

2 and 3 probably need to be repeated a few rounds. However 6 hrs/week of skiing is probably far too little for beginer and too much (boring) for intermediates.

abc, I'm not sure that lessons ought to be distinctly broken out as an entirely separate investment, as opposed to being a -type- of snow time. I can see the reasoning if this is a purely financial thread.

If it is a purely financial thread then pre-season training surely packs better bang for the buck than first skis for instance.

You know it makes sense.

Agenterre,
Absolutely, for maximising enjoyment assuming that you have the basics of being able to ski a little I would take another holiday at the expense of boots or further lessons. In practice it doesn't work like that 'cos time is limited and the costs are not comparable but if I had say £400 to spend on anything to do with skiing my first choice would be a holiday. I'd happily hire boots and have no lessons if it would get me skiing when I otherwise wouldn't be.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Hmm, I think we're missing the requirement for decent (and it need not be expensive) clothing and as good gloves as your hands need. I recall some of the kit (and some of it was state of the then art) that has left me wet amd miserable. A lot of it crosses over from other sports too so...decent clothing a necessity.

That aside:

Weeks 1-2....lessons
weeks 3-5....lessons, maybe boots

Assuming reasonable progress and enjoyment, next step boots

I'm still not convinced you need to buy your own skis until your doing >3 maybe 2 weeks every year.

A snowHead

A snowHead

skimottaret, comprex, et al, sorry - remiss of me to miss out fitness --- didn't appreciate that some felt that was so important to the original question Embarassed

David Murdoch, Agreed - I did take it that 'appropriate' clothing was a given in my original post ; given that anyone skiing would surely only screw up once ? - but then again your own experiences would suggest otherwise ! Shocked

abc, .. but that was the point of the question what would you recommend ? --- your views on intermediacy and where monies should be invested are your own; there may be a right or wrong answer but it will be each individual's own perspective, values and experience that colour your 'advice' T Bar, for one is clear that 'being there' would be the priority for example and therefore his 'advice' would follow that.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I see. I wasn't reading your initial post carefully enough. Embarassed

The reason I qualify my view of priority for beginer/low intermediate is, most upper intermediate would have had their own boots already. If they don't, they really should, RUN, not walk to the nearest bootfitter.

Also at that point, people tend to go off in different directions regarding what's so enjoyable about skiing:

-For those who "just want to be out there", being out there is priority and lesson isn't so important.
-Others might feel improving on technique and ability to ski everywhere would add to their enjoyment the most. Then lessons are paramount.
-Then, there're gearheads. Skiing is yet another excuse to buy more gear. So a new pair of ski each season is satisfaction in itself. Skiing on that new pair of ski? Priceless! Wink

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-"adrenalineheads" distinct from tourists and technique mongers may be gearheads but not necessary. D'ya see me huck that?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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200 quid is probably a but light, but to get maximum gain from your instruction money find a coach / instructor / mentor to work with over the long term.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

david@mediacopy, I'm not totally in agreement with that.
Long term working with one instructor may limit you to what the instructor is good at teaching, and may mean you aren't getting a more rounded approach. (I've learned that not all instructors are perfect at every aspect of skiing Shocked

)
That's where getting input from other instructors can be useful (and one thing where internet communities can provide help through the use of MA videos etc).

How about:
1. Lessons until your instructor(s) recommend it's time for your own boots.
2. Lessons until your instructors recommend it's time for your own skis.
3. More lessons, and lots of free skiing, while turning into a gear whore.

Saying to an instructor "what should I do next to progress?" or "what do you see that is holding me back?" may be a good idea.

After all it is free

Boots, lessons all good but I found what helped me to advance my technique was to ski with peeps who were better than me. The same for lovemaking, especially the boots!

Wear The Fox Hat, The trick is to find a good one, and one that's right for - not an easy job if you are starting out.

I'm certainly not suggesting you limit your self to that one instructor exclusively, and as you become more skilled input from a variety of people with different idea's can only help. But when you are starting out I'd say continuity helps too, but it is not an easy choice.

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fatbob, I feel a little uneasy with you talking about 'no experience of your lovemaking' and winking at me! wink

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abc, I wonder if you're thinking of one 6 hour lesson (being in the States?) In Europe, 6 hours of tuition in a typical week's holiday would probably be 3 x 2 hours with practise and consolidation time in between.

I would agree with most of the posters. Many people don't take lessons because they're "happy bumbling around" or whatever. However, when they do improve their skill level they find that they can ski for longer, ski a bigger variety of terrain and snow, and thus have lots more fun. Boots though - I've done it - if you're feet are really painful it's hard to think about anything else. Sad

easiski, I WAS thinking about 3x2 lessons. And I felt that's not enough for beginer/early intermediate. And too much for intermediate or above who only wishes a "freshen up" at the begining of season/week. I felt private instruction work better for the later group.

Since I moved beyond the low intermediate stage, I did occasionally take lessons. But I found those short group lessons not particularly useful. Skiers at that level tend to have needs different enough from each other, a group lesson of 2 hours ended up working on some common theme that may or may not "click" on an individual. (privates are a different matter) I found half of those group lessons I did were wasted on re-hashing things I already do fine and half on things I don't have a grasp on. In the process, I picked up a lot of tidbits, which some ended up leading to bad habits, thinking I know what I'm doing! Embarassed

Only occasionally I picked up something that's actually useful, and without me expanding it into yet another bad habits. Sad

A more typical "American approach" for skier seriously wishing to improve significantly beyond intermediate level tend to be full day(s) (or at least half day ~3hr for at least a good 2-3 days in a row) "clinics", with the rest of the season to gain experience on whatever they learn, which tend to be quite often terrain specific topics (ice, steep, trees, bumps, etc.).

Granted, UK skiers have their skiing holidays structured a little differently. I always live near snow. So most of my buddies ski lots and lots of weekends. I can see most UK skiers tend to do week long holidays.

You know it makes sense.

abc, No - not group lessons. In europe you can't get just 2 or 3 group lessons - they are every day for a whole week. I think those of us from this side of the pond were thinking of private lessons.

I like a day in between though for intermediates + so they can practise, do their homework and then be ready to move on (hopefully) in the next lesson. Of course if they're determined to book daily lessons I wouldn't refuse ...... I also think that on 1-1 more than 1.5 hours is a waste of time as no-one can concentrate sufficiently for that length of time. More than one person then it's another matter. Cool

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

easiski, here is a question: are there thresholds of usefulness in lesson times? You can teach me something in an hour, fine. You can teach me something in a 3 or 4 hour lesson day, fine. Can you teach me something in a 3 day programme that you cannot teach me in 3 one-day programmes?

A snowHead

easiski, in that case (private), you're absolutely right there's no need for a whole day instruction. And I also agree a day in between is best for consolidating what's learn into one's own.

Although at MSB, the 1.5 hr private lesson I took, I wished it were 2hr. Because first the instrutor had to un-do some of my bad habits before moving on to the task in hand that's the topic of the day: powder. So at the end of the one and half hour, I was BEGINING to get the hang of it and could use another run or two of the "follow-me" type of "pratice".

A snowHead

Wear The Fox Hat, D'you reckon MA videos help? I'm not convinced the quality is always high enough...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

David Murdoch, I think they can be useful, because it is one thing to have one person comment on seeing you ski once, but it is another to have a group of people be able to analyse the same set of turns and try to work out what is going on, and what could be improved.
If the quality is really poor (youtube, et al), then the best you might be able to get is about general body positioning, but if it's good, then there is potential for a lot more.

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MA videos...??? missed that... Puzzled

but any video should help, even your own. I've just spent the weekend well, sunday, going through all our stuff and then we put on Warren Miller's 'Storm' and then Warren Smith's..er, 'How to do it' and all were good value. Of course, you get get yourself into lots of trouble as it's interpretation. For example, I didn't have a clue what the last video was talking about with so and so buzz words, but once you saw the drill, you knew exactly what he was getting at. But... you can't start clueless, you must know what the ski can do and what benefits of a good stance can do and then you should be able to relate that to your own videos and pick out the flaws. It almost made me want to book a week on snow there and then.

But... if you don't understand what you are trying to do, then you'll just have to have someone ram into your head, day in, day out. And another thing...we never practise, so discipline is another plus

Review, practise and discilpline ....not a mantra I do...but the thought is there... wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

a quote from Fastman... but pertinent to the subject

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They are all equally important.

But if you force me to prioritize, it has to be:

1. Boots.
2. Skis.
3. Lessons.

Boots and skis are tangible.

Lessons are intangible.

The right equipment is critical. It maximizes the benefit from lessons.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Unethical? Puzzled

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Unethical is when the customer ask to have his toe chopped off in order to fit in the boot, and got it done.

To offer unneeded lesson when the customer insist is just good business.

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Investing in Improvement of Enjoyment & Technique

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