 Poster: A snowHead
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This one, I suppose, is for the instructors out there. Are there people who, despite years of practice, expense and coaching, simply cannot improve? What causes this state of affairs? Is it the client's inability to assimilate information? Is it the coach/instructor who fails to teach properly and understand the true dynamics of learning? Is it really down to the inate (or otherwise) talent the learner has?
It's interesting because there are a myriad of books, videos, gurus, mentors, etc, out there who seduce the inept, the incapable with what would appear to be panaceas to their skiing ills. In over 25 years of skiing there have appeared on the market numerous 'solutions': Ali Ross and how we learned to ski', McGarry the Ski System, the Inner Game, Martin Heckelmann's 'War and Peace' video saga, Peter Styvesant, Hugh Monney...to the modern 'greats' of Warren Smith and....I've forgotten his name-the bloke from the Ski Club magazine!
Should we admit that there are, despite all of this enthusiastic input, people who'll never really pick it up?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sure.
Not everyone is capable of doing everything, and not everyone who does something is good at it.
There is a famous book called "Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier", and the idea was that if you read that book, you too could join the "experts" funny thing is that in the many years since that book came out, the author would now say that there are maybe 20 experts in the world, so even by his own admission, his book is a con!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As with all these things the answer lies in picking the question apart I think.
Define competent: Able to ski at an appropriate pace on all terrain with a variety of turns, with decent form and control? Able to get down a green/blue run without being a hazard to oneself and others? Able to make sensible decisions about one's own ability and skills such that one is never own of one's depth?
Next question: does it matter if you aren't competent by someone else's measure if you are by your own?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yes, but never mind, lots of people still have fun doing it badly; and because it's not a team sport, one can enjoy oneself at any level without letting other people down. That does, of course, engender laziness (as I know only too well!) and I reckon that quite a lot of people who don't improve are simply failing to practise properly. That applies to any learned skill.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Could be a few specific things, or a combination of things. Mostly they are (in order of causal factors):
1. Equipment - People refuse to believe that equipment can hold them back. So they insist on buying boots on eBay that are ill fitting. Or they have had their boots for "n" years and believe that they will never get another pair as comfortable or with more control. Things move on, technology changes, materials change. Sure, you can drive a Morris Minor everywhere, but on a twisty B road, even a modest modern car (eg; Ford Focus) is going to be much better in terms of comfort and performance. Or they ski with equiment ill-matched to their ability.
2. Morphological factors - some people are just not built for skiing.  Or have various morphological anomolies that have to be corrected or compensated for (eg; internally rotated femur, no internal hip rotation etc.)
3. Psychological factors - This I find to be the number 1 issue with a lot of women (vast generalisation, some men too!), they don't believe in their ability and skills, and very often this prevents them from performing at the level they are capable of. Also - when learning - refusal to believe the instructor. eg: "Get Lower". "But I am". "No, you're not". "But I feel I'm touching the ground"  . Or they might not attack a steep slope because of fear, and this puts their stance in the worst position possible.
4. Tactics - the ability to "think on your feet" to adapt things learnt to different conditions, terrain etc. One distingushing factor with skiing over all other "closed skill" sports is the external factors and variability. In gymnastics or diving, for example, you can train muscle memory in a controlled repetetive environment, the horse will always remain there in the same place, the water in the pool is always the same depth etc. With skiing every turn, every run will be different. Trying to use the same technique in different conditions and terrain etc. is not the correct approach.
5. Technique - Is the candidate open to learning? So many times, I have seen very good and strong skiers fail their CSIA Level 1 Instructor certification. And yet they are capable of skiing all over the mountain. But they are closed to changing their skiing, unwilling to return to ground zero to build up a different approach, or to change their muscle memory. Also an element of not wanting to believe the coach/instructor (see above), and eg; "roll your ankles".
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 22-05-07 18:06; edited 2 times in total
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My gawd, I'm grumpy today 
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kevin mcclean, are some people incapable of becoming competent musicians? Or drivers? Or anything? Some people aren't even capable of being competent trolls!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wear The Fox Hat, Approximately 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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abc,
that is no excuse...
I have zip body awareness... I mean dammit I regularly fall UP stairs (I kid you not) and broke my wrist from falling over on the flat landing at top of stairs (and then tumbling down) while standing still!!
I still ski quite well with only a few years of skiing under my belt... and I started very late in life as well....
Much of it is determination to do it leading to being prepared to WORK for it... as I have been told a few times in the last couple of years ... you can see the results of the work I've put in now coming to fruition...
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Poster: A snowHead
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kevin mcclean,
They make Fags. They just sponsored skiing in the 80's
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| little tiger wrote: |
abc,
that is no excuse...
I have zip body awareness... I mean dammit I regularly fall UP stairs (I kid you not) and broke my wrist from falling over on the flat landing at top of stairs (and then tumbling down) while standing still!!
I still ski quite well with only a few years of skiing under my belt... and I started very late in life as well....
Much of it is determination to do it leading to being prepared to WORK for it... as I have been told a few times in the last couple of years ... you can see the results of the work I've put in now coming to fruition... |
But you WANT to. That's the difference.
It's painful to have accidents, too. So, not everyone cares to purposely throw oneself into sports that garantee falls...
As the daughter of one, it's a bit rough to keep worrying about a phone call in midnight about yet another misshape. (in reality there was none so far, all the accident happen at day time, but the potential was there obviously) Most people have that kind of worry about their kids, who will eventually grow out of it. But with parents, it's only going to get worse.
So, being somewhat selfish, I never encourage any NEW sporting activities... at least not the kind that involves lots of falls! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| veeeight wrote: |
| the ability to "think of your feet" |
I think quickly off my feet, such as "f... me, I'm about to land in that stream!" 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wear The Fox Hat, the book is called "Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier", though, so he's simply saying that anyone could be, not that everyone will be.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think people forget that skiing is an athletic sport and to get to a higher level in any sport it helps to be a good athlete and have some talent.
Everyone has their own definition of "competent", depends what turns you one when you are sliding
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think the answer is yes. I suspect the biggest barrier to competence on the slopes in people who have continued skiing is attitudinal. We all have friends who ski in... shall we say a robust but agricultural fashion? They are usually the people least interested in taking lessons, trying different skis, trying to copy other peoples styles etc. I suspect they also lane hog lane 2 on the motorways too.
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Got "yes" every time I looked into the mirror and found a living proof.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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yes, some people are just no good at sport. but if you enjoy it - who cares?!
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| veeeight wrote: |
4. Tactics - the ability to "think on your feet" to adapt things learnt to different conditions, terrain etc. One distingushing factor with skiing over all other "closed skill" sports is the external factors and variability. ". |
I'd saying surfing is far worse in this regard...
You can go back and hit the same jump again in skiing... or ski the same face/run and the snow does not usually change that fast... but in surfing you can NEVER catch the same wave again (unless you invent a time machine and then you are soon going to be dropping in on yourself)....
This is the thing I find most frustating about learning to surf... it is SOOO hard to get the practice consistency... the damn waves insist on MOVING damn it
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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abc,
oh yeah... but i was (literally) dragged kicking and screaming to tennis lessons, swimming lessons I made myself physically ill rather than attend, etc...
You just have to let them find the sport for them.... then the WANT comes...
I am sure my father chuckles inside every time he sees me heading out for a rollerblade lesson or hears I've been riding a bike or whatever to improve my skiing... and the sight of my ski gear must send him into internal fits of hysterics given my totally detesting sport as a youngster
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1,
Depends what you mean by "not good" .... ask Fastman about his program and IIRC he will tell you he never had a student did not achieve a high level of skiing... if they wanted to do it...
World Champions - probably not any but the talented... but high level skiing compared to what you see on hill? Doable!
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kevin mcclean, You've been watching me, haven't you? I can tell
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger, the good thing about surfing though.....there are more days when I can get in the water than I can get on the snow. And we even have some waves here.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
sure.
Not everyone is capable of doing everything, and not everyone who does something is good at it.
There is a famous book called "Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier", and the idea was that if you read that book, you too could join the "experts" funny thing is that in the many years since that book came out, the author would now say that there are maybe 20 experts in the world, so even by his own admission, his book is a con! |
How many people have read the book?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mr Lizzard, I started but never finished it. It didn't seem to tie in very well with what I was doing on skis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| little tiger wrote: |
I'd saying surfing is far worse in this regard...
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That'll be why surfing is classed as an open skilled sport 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Veeeeeeeeeeeight said
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Could be a few specific things, or a combination of things....
3. Psychological factors - .... refusal to believe the instructor. eg: "Get Lower". "But I am". "No, you're not". "But I feel I'm touching the ground" .
5. Technique - Is the candidate open to learning? So many times, I have seen very good and strong skiers fail their CSIA Level 1 Instructor certification.... ....they are closed to changing their skiing, unwilling to return to ground zero to build up a different approach, or to change their muscle memory. Also an element of not wanting to believe the coach/instructor (see above), and eg; "roll your ankles".
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"Refusal to believe the instructor"... yep, its a common problem. If you are keen enough to bother to hire an instructor, then you are sufficiently motivated to have your own (wrong?) opinions on things too. I'm guilty of this fault all the time. My ego/self-belief always outstrips my ability. But it's my ego that gets me out there in the first place. A conundrum.
You can tell a snowhead a mile away. Up close, you can't tell them a darn thing!
I totally believe in the power of video to help people make the connection/distinction between muscle memory ( what you *think*/*feel* you are doing ) and reality ( what you are *actually doing ).
A constructive debrief of a video of a single run can make the world of difference.
As well as identifying faults/areas for improvement , it's also important to use a video to reinforce positive learning experiences ( e.g. "see, you think you were flexing your knees, but you can get much lower than that " and "your hands are much better this time, much more forward" ).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm surprised that with just a minor mention of it no-one has really discussed fear here as a barrier. I am convinced that I have the learning ability to assimilate and apply good teaching, that although I'm not supremely fit I am probably fit enough to ski to my own satisfaction, I have new recently fitted boots - suitable for my current capability and hire a ski that is supposed to be suitable according to the hirer - so you could argue that my gear is OK, I also should have good sense of balance having ridden, cycled, danced etc. most of my life.
There is no real reason that I can see why I should be unable to technically ski to my own satisfaction, except for one - the overall fear aspect. Even when I tried 10-12 years ago just to look over the edge of the blue run gave me the collywobbles. Me and my fear have a lot of mileage together - it came through even when I rode horses at times, I don't do hospitals, and what ever you do don't ask me to jump from a height. I recognise it, but still struggle to overcome it without a damn good reason. With skiing I hope the reason is the fear of kids skiing without me on the mountains that will do it, but I will have to try hard. Folks here have said that with competence will come the loss of fear, but I still wonder - I am a pretty good and competent horse rider - I been riding since age 4 and had 10+ years of lessons - yet my horse still wins the psycology war when he suddenly decides that he is not going to listen to me and zooms off in the opposite direction - I am competent enough to stop him, but lose the fear battle and this is only in our own field!
Unless I can lose the fear will I ever be able to ski to my own satisfaction - I doubt it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, it sounds as though you're having no fun whatsoever. Have you thought of taking up knitting? You could always file the dangerous pointy ends off the needles.
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Megamum , I've always found singing helps. If i'm in a rut, my own tortured rendition of "summertime" stops me worrying too much about technique or the impending doom. And I seem to ski smoother too.
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Lizzard, Did you and I ever battle in another life?
I love the snow and I love the idea of perhaps being able to ski one day, I also enjoy the challenge of learning something new - something I've not done for years. There are worse reasons for trying to learn. B.t.w. can't stand knitting - I can do it well, but like sewing I try to avoid having to do it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
