 Poster: A snowHead
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spyderjon,
Fully understand what you say about time and money, what I am trying to get over is that the CIs should be encouraged in continuous improvement be it technique, fitness, client care etc. For me the industry should be tailored to assisting them ie short courses that fit them and their schedules.
For a lot of us the artificial slope instructor is our first contact with the sport. The industry should be doing all it can to help and motivate these people but as I said before the businesses that are the artificial slopes may only be interested in bottom line and see these volunteers as a welcome way to keep cost low and revenue high.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Vladimir Ashkenazy does not typically spend his life teaching 5 year olds where middle C is on a piano keyboard 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Gordon Ramsey does not typically spend his life teaching anyone how to boil water or fry an egg
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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woody911, welcome to snowHeads! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Gilberts Fridge, what gives you the impression that there is "an industry" ? Dry slopes vary in terms of ownership and management. Without volunteer CI's and ASSI's (who have to have exactly the same qualifications as paid ones by the way) I suspect our slope would not survive - how many punters do you think are motivated enough to ski on a dry slope between April and December? What proportion do you think are willing to pay the huge sum of £40 mentioned above for a private lesson? Most will take the much cheaper group lesson option. Almost all the money has to be made in a couple of months of the year yet the slope has to stay open and be maintained all year round, replace skis, boots matting etc.
As for support, for as long as I have been involved in this the funding from the Sports Council and its successors has been reduced year on year (from what was a low base to start with) with inevitable consequences.
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Yoda,
I have not skied artificial slopes for around ten years since I left the UK but my experience then was of paying high rates but getting poor service, I was made to feel I should be grateful that they had even thought to open a dry slope. I have mainly skied at Bracknell, Hilingdon (sadly I understand that its now closed)and Hillend but also a couple of times at Aldershot. Given the amount of other dry slopes and the newer indoor slopes I would say there is an industry.
The fact that they are surviving on the back of the CI and the ASSI says to me that they should at least be investing in these peoples skills to ensure that their clients receive the best experience possible. They may not be able to pay their instructors at the bottom end but at least try and develop them. I know not everyone wants to be a grade 1 making a career from instructing but I would hope that if I entrusted myself to any organisation offering instruction that they would ensure they provided staff that were motivated and sufficiently trained to ensure that not only did I progress, I was also exposed to minimum risk.
I used to try and go once a week in winter to get my fix but a lot of my friends would not because of the slopes attitudes to their customers. Simple things like not putting the sprinklers on, not putting all the lifts on if the slope was busy or equipment staff more interested in talking to their mates/skiing themselves than dealing with joe public.
With regards to funding I have now idea what is funded and why, I would hope that it would include subsidised instruction to bring children into the sport and also training for high achievers who could develope into national squad members. I suspect that this may not be the case though.
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What proportion do you think are willing to pay the huge sum of £40 mentioned above for a private lesson? Most will take the much cheaper group lesson option.
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Yoda, Okay lets look at pay for group lessons then. as an example at our slope a 3 x 2 hour group lesson package costs £90. £15 per hour as opposed to £40 for private.
Recreational skiing only w/o an instructor would cost the punter £14 per 2 hour session or £42 of the £90. so the owners are making an additional £48 per person by having an instructor present (£8 per hour per person). Most groups i teach are 8 to 15 people so they are making around £64 - £120 per hour for each group and they pay the instructor zero.
Your slope costs may be different but you can see how much more the slope makes for the additional services that the instructor provides at little or no pay.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I can't imagine that dry slope operators make pots of money, even if they use lowly-qualified volunteers. I'm not sure anyone's getting screwed.
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laundryman, my point being is that they should at a minimum put something back as far as training their "staff" pleading poverty adn saying that they cant exist if they have to pay their staff doesnt cut it when you look at the facts about the value added that instructors bring.
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Without volunteer CI's and ASSI's (who have to have exactly the same qualifications as paid ones by the way)
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why are some paid and others not? If they volunteer for school groups, kids mornings, etc fair enough but if they are being charged out and used as free labour and getting little back in terms of training or further qualifications that wouldnt be right.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, I agree with that.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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With regards the wages and training issue; from what I've seen at Gloucester pretty much all the instructors seem to do the job on a part-time basis alongside other jobs. However, they are paid an hourly rate and they also get free skiing and regular (free) weekly training training sessions to improve their own skill levels as well as what they call "Governing Body" courses throughout the year. Additionally if working more than a minimum number of hours they get free meals and drinks as well as cheap rates at a local fitness club (for them as well as family) half price ski servicing and a few other discounts too. I'm not sure how typical this is, and from comments above it may not be typical at all, but I'd suggest this pays dividends in the quality of instruction on offer and in the commitment of their instructors who, in my experience (with my daughter taking lessons there), are very committed to both the centre and their clients in providing the best possible quality lessons they can.
If this is not the case in most or many slopes, and I'd be very interested to hear what Tamworth provide because again I've been impressed by what I've seen of their instructors, I think it's a great shame because the end result is the public get short changed and the ski centres themselves surely can't prosper in the long term.
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I can only comment on pay at Hemel dry slope. Club Instructors are paid the national minimum wage for the hours they work, plus free skiing whenever they want, plus consessions for their friends and family. CI's have always been paid at Hemel once they are qualified. While they are doing their 20 hours, that is for free, but they can still ski anytime for free. They also get access to the coaching sessions for £5 for 2 hours.
I think to ask a qualified CI to work for nothing is outragous. Pure exploitation. 
Once Hemel moves to snow however, we have decided that the CI level of Instructor, will no longer be acceptable and that a minimum ASSI will be required. It gives us 1 year to get all of our CI's up to standard.
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You know it makes sense.
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roga, Spyderman,
As I said in my first post I have learnt a lot about snowsports instruction in the UK from this site and thread. The packages available to the instructors at your local slopes you describe are what should be available to the volunteers. Recognise their contribution and encourage their advancement. I hope that other slopes are offering similar.
Every BASI level 1 instructor had to start some where, not every CI will reach that level but at least give them the chance to develop in what ever role they choose. I feel very strongly in regard to good instruction, My kids a learning now and I want that they get a great introduction to our sport.
Last year on Holiday in the 3V we had one child with Magic in Motion and their instruction was great, our youngest was with the ESF Jardin de Enfents and that was OK but whilst skiing ourselves we passed a group lesson by the ESF and saw an instructor scream at a 6year old that had fallen over at the top of a lift. I dont know how the kid had behaved before with him but that was not how he should have handled the situation and he should never be any where near being employed as an instructor again.
The first contact may of us have with our sport is a dry slope instructor lets encourage them to acheive the highest standard they can for their role
Spyderman, good luck to your slope and instructors getting to ASSI
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Once Hemel moves to snow however, we have decided that the CI level of Instructor, will no longer be acceptable and that a minimum ASSI will be required. It gives us 1 year to get all of our CI's up to standard
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Spyderman, very commendable, having a definative timescale for the CI's to advance and giving them subsidised training and free slope time to practice is exactly how it should be in my book. A few may not make it for whatever reason but perhaps that will open the door for some new blood to enter the system.
Is assi typically the minimum at snow domes or is hemel just trying to up the overall standard?
Just to be contencious, is there a higher pay on offer or some other carrot once someone goes from CI to ASSI at hemel. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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and I'd be very interested to hear what Tamworth provide
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CCI's don't get paid. They do get slope use on a 1:1 basis, so if you shadow 2 hours, you can use the slope for 2 hours.
There is a small sliding scale of pay for CI's starting from min.wage and going up to ISIA/IVSI. Free slope use on a 1:1 basis. Discount on food bought during a working day. Free lessons for family in the summer. Friends & Family deal on lessons & slope use in summer. Regular weekly training available.
Tamworth may be a bit of an anomoly as there is a high ratio of BASI/CSIA qualified instructors to SSS/SSE ones there. Infact prob more CSIA than BASI even, the current Head of Ski School is CSIA (that doesn't go down well with SSE).
But having said that the guys doing the bread n butter work are mainly CI's, the rest (like myself) are brought in only when it gets busy, or the going gets tough, and mainly do the odd occasional shift in the weekday evenings. I expect we cost them too much in wages.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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[quote="Spyderman"]
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| I would be interested on your views on the original topic of BASI grade 4. |
BASI grade 4, or more correctly Trainee instructor, is a one week assessment course at the end of which students should have a clear understanding on what ski teaching is about & what, if anything, they have to work on before doing the Grade 3 course.
The course is not pass or fail but the Traineer will 'suggest' when you should do your Grade 3.
Like many things in life ski teaching is not all it appears to be. Most people think of idilic days on the mountain, skiing fast or off piste where reality is more often long days on the nursery slopes teaching begineers when it is cold, snowy or even worst raining.
The Grade 4 course introduces BASI's core 'The Central Theme' and students generally start to realise that ski teaching is not all about those idilic days.
The grade 4 course does not give a qualification to teach anywhere where as ASSI, SSE,SSS etc do give a qualification to teach on dry/indoor slopes.
I would personally place the ASSI,SSE,SSS etc qualifications above Grade 4 as they are a teaching qualification. The problem is that most of these do not include 'The Central Theme' so anybody gaining an exemption from Grade 4 would go onto Grade 3 without any knowledge of 'The Central Theme'.
BASI is a recognised body worldwide and they are members of all the appropriate councils or should we call them 'Quangos'. They are a 'non profit making' training organisation and are now a limited company but are not a Goverment body. As far as i am aware there is nothing stopping SSS, SSE or others having their qualifications ratified by the other bodies worldwide.
The great amalgamation of the seperate home bodies into one body does not appear to be taking place so BASI appears to be flexing their muscles by saying that they no longer recognise certain qualifications. This will give BASI what it wanted if the amalgimation had taken place i.e Control of all training in the UK.
BASI are now to run their own APC (Alpine Performance Courses) which have previously been run by SSS.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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meh. Politics.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret,
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Is assi typically the minimum at snow domes or is hemel just trying to up the overall standard?
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I can only comment about MK re snowdomes, in that ASSI is their minimum standard required, as IFAIAA they do not have any SSE coaches, only SSS Coaches, so CI is not an option for them.
Hemel actively run training sessions throughout the summer & to a lesser degree the winter, to progress our Instructor base, with regard to their qualifications and more importantly current teaching ideas. We are very lucky that we have 5 SSE Coaches, 1 SSS Coach, a BASI Ski Teacher ISIA and a BASI ISTD Trainer. All available for the summer training.
We have decided to move our base level of Instructor to ASSI, to further raise the quality of instruction offered, plus we have not run a SSE ASSI course in about 5 years. New Instructors have come in done their CI, then switched to SSS to do their ASSI, because of the easier progression to BASI, and the use of the 'Central Theme'. Our new intake courses, from this year are focussed on the requirements to go forward to do the SSS ASSI directly, bypassing the CI.
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Just to be contencious, is there a higher pay on offer or some other carrot once someone goes from CI to ASSI at hemel.
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For sure, their is a full sliding scale of pay. The higher the qualification, the higher the pay. Still doesn't amount to much. but there is a clear incentive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight, Spyderman, and others thanks for the info on pay rates and benefits structures at the various slopes.
This lends a lot of credence to the fact that the slopes that get positive comments (hemel, gloucester, tamworth) have a pay structure/benefits system that actively promotes training and continual professional development. The slopes that come in for criticism dont seem to have any development incentives for the instructors.
I sympathise with the slopes in the more remote areas that struggle for custom but if they cannot afford to pay their staff and are not profitable perhaps they should transition into not for profit clubs like a rugby or sailing club and be member run with everyone being volunteers not just the CI's on the front line.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, Trust me, at Tamworth it's definitely not about the money
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skimottaret, I think you'll find that
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training and continual professional development
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comes a long way before pay.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ski, absolutely but if i was an 18 year old the difference between minimum wage and an extra few pence an hour would be significant. Me, Im 44 and just hoping to get petrol money to get to the slope
Sorry to bang on about money but at my slope the two owners roll up in a Porsche Boxster and a top of the Line Range Rover, only the 3 full time instructors get paid (not a lot), all the part timers get told two years ago thta times are tough and go from minimum wage to no pay but free skiing for direct family and the occasional ski service.
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stewart woodward,
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BASI grade 4, or more correctly Trainee instructor, is a one week assessment course at the end of which students should have a clear understanding on what ski teaching is about & what, if anything, they have to work on before doing the Grade 3 course.
The course is not pass or fail but the Traineer will 'suggest' when you should do your Grade 3.
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I think you have totally missed the point, or not read my original post.  The 'BASI grade 4' does not exist at the moment. It is something that BASI will launch next season to compete with the SSE & SSS ASSI qualification and probably replace the Trainee Instructor course.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sorry to bang on about money but at my slope the two owners roll up in a Porsche Boxster and a top of the Line Range Rover, only the 3 full time instructors get paid (not a lot), all the part timers get told two years ago thta times are tough and go from minimum wage to no pay but free skiing for direct family and the occasional ski service.
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And if they accepted that fair enough. That perhaps why the owner drive flash cars, because they are good businessmen? Besides if they stopped the free skiing for family and friends he could sell his Boxster and get a proper Porsche
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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BGA, Nothing wrong with being good businessmen and making money. i voted with my feet and left but the older retired people that are the bulk of the CI's there are mainly there for the love of the sport and something to do, they shrug their shoulders and go "oh well".
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Artificial slopes can be profitable if run correctly. At Hemel we have noticed however a downturn in business since MK has opened, especially in the recreational business, lessons are pretty much the same in turns of volume, which is why we concentrate so heavily on our ski school.
The existing Snowdomes concentrate on recreational skiers as their core business, with lessons very much second. You cannot get a group lesson at MK above snowplough turns from the top of the slope. When Hemel goes to snow the slope will run on the same basis as it does now, very much teaching focused.
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You know it makes sense.
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AFAIK Xscape Castleford's min qualification is ASSI, with SSS running 4/5 courses a year there. Last year the instructor rate was approx £7.60 an hour which was quite a bit more than a couple of my ASSI mates were getting at the Sheffield dry slope so they switched to Xscape. Newly qualified ASSI's don't get paid whilst doing their shadowing hours. Instructors get free slope use & discount in the cafe but don't know of other benefits, although I think that the EB branch there gives the instructors dizzy on gear & servicing.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 18-05-07 11:31; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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i voted with my feet and left but the older retired people that are the bulk of the CI's there are mainly there for the love of the sport and something to do, they shrug their shoulders and go "oh well".
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That's part of the problem I suppose - the hobby instructors who don't need the money make it more difficult for career instructors to negotiate proper pay and conditions. It's the same at flying schools, there are so many young commercial pilots who need to build up hours to try and get their airline licence or retired hobbyists who just love flying that they will instruct for almost nothing so anyone who wants to make a career of it struggles to make enough cash to get by.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I do think pay rates are rediculously low for qualified Instructors. I have a friend who teaches Swimming part-time at the local swimming baths. She gets £16 hr and she doesn't even get wet!
£ 7.50 for a Ski Instructor is woeful, condidering the wear & tear on equipment, clothing, membership subscription, cost of courses, first aid, CRB, the list goes on. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So now I'm confused, reading all the posts above about the proposed BASI4.
Is it, or not, a qualification at the end of it, that will allow teaching on (dry) ski slopes in the UK?
Or is it a replacement for the BASI Foundation where the outcome is a reccommendation to go or not to go for your BASI3? In which case it is not a substitute for ASSI.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yoda, fair dues if the slope is owned by Snowsport Wales and is not a commercial enterprise, it sounds like a club to me and volunteering is a great thing. great to hear you offer skill development for the volunteers.
But you did in a previous post mention that some instructors get paid, why the differential?
BGA, i am a hobbiest in the sense i dont need to be paid but it just galled me that the instructors were being exploited whilst clearly the slope is viable financially. I feel that instructors when volunteering at a commercial enterprise should think through how this impacts on younger wanna be instructors, the slopes overall staff training and personal development programmes.
And i used to be one of the pilots that would have taught for free to build hours so know where you are coming from on that one but in that case they are working towards obtaining a higher qualification not just stuck volunteering at a single engine land commercial rating.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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BGA, skimottaret, unless artificially constrained eg monopoly employer, trades union etc, it is, and i think correctly so, supply and demand
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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veeeight,
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So now I'm confused, reading all the posts above about the proposed BASI4.
Is it, or not, a qualification at the end of it, that will allow teaching on (dry) ski slopes in the UK?
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Yes, it is a direct competitor to the SSS & SSE ASSI.
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Or is it a replacement for the BASI Foundation where the outcome is a reccommendation to go or not to go for your BASI3? In which case it is not a substitute for ASSI.
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I would imaging it would replace the Foundation/Trainee course. So basically a Trainee Instructor with a licence to teach on artificial slopes.
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skimottaret, because there are some permanent staff, either full or part time, and that is their main job so they get paid (but not a lot imho). They also do more than instructing - repairing/replacing the Dendix, cutting the hedges, mowing the grass, dealing with the local hooligans and vandals etc.
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Yoda, makes sense, thanks, just trying to understand what it is like for instructors at various slopes in the UK and it very much sounds like a labour of love.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not just in the UK....
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| We have decided to move our base level of Instructor to ASSI, to further raise the quality of instruction offered, plus we have not run a SSE ASSI course in about 5 years. New Instructors have come in done their CI, then switched to SSS to do their ASSI, because of the easier progression to BASI, and the use of the 'Central Theme'. Our new intake courses, from this year are focussed on the requirements to go forward to do the SSS ASSI directly, bypassing the CI. |
So can I just clarify this, you're saying the Scottish ASSI incorporates the 'Central Theme' whereas the SSE ASSI doesn't?
| skimottaret wrote: |
| veeeight, Spyderman, and others thanks for the info on pay rates and benefits structures at the various slopes. |
Yes, seconded, it's interesting to hear what's happening and get some idea of why some slopes seem more successful than others.
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| This lends a lot of credence to the fact that the slopes that get positive comments (hemel, gloucester, tamworth) have a pay structure/benefits system that actively promotes training and continual professional development. The slopes that come in for criticism dont seem to have any development incentives for the instructors. |
It sounds like it doesn't it!
| veeeight wrote: |
| skimottaret, Trust me, at Tamworth it's definitely not about the money |
LOL, but there's a commitment there and some damned good people as far as I can see, I guess having training opportunities and being treated reasonably and fairly by the slope helps to motivate people.
BTW, you teaching at Tamworth at the moment? I'm off there tomorrow for the Junior Club racing (my daughter not me ) should be fun, if potentially chaotic
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FAQ
