 Poster: A snowHead
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| little tiger wrote: |
CEM,
So you would agree then that a boot that LOCKS the foot from its natural movement (pronation/supination) is a poor boot? |
no, remember the biomechanics of evry person is different, there are people who ski around perfectly well in boots too big...the foot cannot be locked , there are other people who hyper analyse every movement, the slightest skin over bone movement feels like the boot is too big and they want more hold.
the idea of a ski boot is to support the foot, not lock it, to lock the foot completely during the forces involved in skiing you would probably have to replace the liner with concrete  the foot has 3 movements that make up pronation dorsiflexion, eversion and abduction if you block ALL three then the foot would be locked, but to do this we are back to the concrete or a boot so tight you would last a couple of turns
as soon as any of the motions mentioned take place then there is an amount of pronation present, the idea of the footbed is to give the foot a 3 dimensional base to work against..
the real question is how much pronation is too little , just enough or too much??? i guess this is down to personal choice and technique / tutition
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, All the time. I watch them for the morning, try a few things, then at lunchtime, make them take their boot off, and check them over, and then fish out their footbeds, put them on the table, point, and proclaim "You had these made at the London Ski Show, didn't you "!!
At which point they think there's witchcraft involved..... 
One lady this season I sent straight down the mountain to the bootfitters after skiing with her for 20 mins - with specific instructions to the bootfitter for cuff alignment - she came back and her skiing was transformed. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, we are back to your personal experiences with bootfitters, Pronation is a motion we require ...OVER pronation =BAD
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CEM, I have a hard time trying to convey that a ski boot is designed to RESTRICT some movements, not to ELIMINATE all movement. Many folk get it in their head that the tighter the better, they try and completely lock out all movement.
Bring back ankle high leather boots. How did they ever ski then? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight, you mean like the lady who walked in to the Zoo in Chamonix when I was there, and after measuring her foot, and comparing it to her boot, I heard one of the trainee zookeepers ask her which branch of a certain UK chain store known for ski and climbing gear that the boots had been purchased as they were the standard 2 sizes too big.
Do you ever work with alignment when with students? - such as doing standard drills, or trying different card lifters under the boots to see what difference they make?
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| Quote: |
Do you ever work with alignment when with students? - such as doing standard drills, or trying different card lifters under the boots to see what difference they make?
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If I know I'm going to get the students back the next day, I normally send them to 1 of 3 bootfitters I know that evening, they normally return the next day with removeable shims so that I can assess with and without. I have a good working relationship with certain guys in the village whom I send clients to, they know their onions.
Same day students - there is a limited amount I can do (trail maps are a good favorite) but I do tell them that they have an issue with their boots and advise that they get them checked out.
Alignment is yet another huge can of worms, with differing schools of thought on how you correct something. But it's something that my particular dept. (Supergroups) is shit hot on as most of us are bio mechanical geeks. But as instructors we're a little hesitant to play around too much on the hill what with liability etc. so we tend to leave the mods (planing etc.) to the bootfitters.
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veeeight, thanks - good to hear.
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| CEM wrote: |
the idea of a ski boot is to support the foot, not lock it, to lock the foot completely during the forces involved in skiing you would probably have to replace the liner with concrete the foot has 3 movements that make up pronation dorsiflexion, eversion and abduction if you block ALL three then the foot would be locked, but to do this we are back to the concrete or a boot so tight you would last a couple of turns
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ah good so we agree the foot CAN move in this manner in a properly fitted ski boot...
Hence the idea that it is "impossible" is not so likely... although a certain range of motion may be blocked in some way?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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LT, Lol! Don't back the guy into a corner
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veeeight,
well when people have been saying I cannot initiate a turn with the ankles because they cannot move in a boot!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Great discussion, gang. CEM, I like you're take on this topic. Good to see a boot fitters who understand the importance of allowing the foot to function as God or evolution (which ever suits you) has designed it to. I like your concrete liner analogy, and often use a similar one myself. I also talk about the importance of the foot having room for expansion inside the boot,,, as weight is applied to the foot and the trusses spread and provide a tensioned platform from which we derive balance. I've seen too many so called "boot fitters" who try to jam a foot into a downsized boot, without taking this bio-mechanical reality into consideration, and in essence send the skier out the door with that concrete fit you eluded to. The skier is left with the challenge of trying to balance while teetering on virtual stubs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Are you familiar with the "Birdcage" boot experiments David MacPhail did with Steve Podborski a few years back? He documented some interesting results on this very subject.
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Yes, I wish I could read the relevant articles, but as I'm not an EpicSki supporter I can't get into that section
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight,
at one point when david first appeared at epic and was told he had no idea what he was talking about, I found published papers of his... I am not sure where or how i did that now... just that they were there complete with birdcage pictures...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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little tiger, the question is not if they can move inside the boot but whether if well-fitted whatever movement the "ankles" themselves make will move the boot itself, thus having an effect on edge angle, independent of the rest of the lower limb. No-one I've yet read has argued that there'd be no movement such that you couldn't initiate a very shallow turn.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, i think alot of the problems with people over tightening boots comes down to the fitting in the first place, if the boot has too much volume then the only way to restrict movement is to overtighten, there comes a point when the overtightening stops all movement....just what the skier appears to want, at this point the shell geometry of the boot is so altered that it is no longer flexing as it was designed.
with more and more modified plug boots in softer flex being produced then the possiblilty of having a more foot shaped boot improves, by bringing the foot closer to the shell and modifying to accomodate boney prominances then we enter a whole new arena.
as they say .....things can only get better
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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CEM, I know you'll probably agree with this (given your job!), but for the instructors, should the bootwork (I'm using a general term to cover a wide variety of things which may include on-slope experimentation and shop based tweaking) be part and parcel of teaching?
If it should, is it seperate to teaching skills, or integrated with the skill learning?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| CEM wrote: |
Wear The Fox Hat, we get a lot of refferals from instructors wanting tweaks doing to clients boots after they have had a lesson,
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You mean like having clients walking in and asking you to put Disney plates on the toes of their boots?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I struggle and am amazed how little our Instructors here in Cham, understand the function of feet and ski boots. That said we do work very closely with a chosen few. However, those i work with and understand our job wouldn't dream of sending me clients with 'Their' idea of what needed to be done. If i had a client come by with their ski instructor, whom asked me to Align cuff left, 1.5degrees laterally and cuff right 2degrees i wouldn't do it. First the foot itself needs to be analysed and supported correctly and then we can take measurements as to correct cuff alignment/canting/balancing this is something i trust myself to do(it's my job) and not an Instructor. The synergy requires a mutual respect, any instructor that sends a Bootfitter instructons is misunderstanding the role of the Bootfitter/doesn't trust their Bootfitter or has a Duff Bootfitter.
As for the 'Movement' in a ski boot question, it is a ridgid structure it is designed to restrict excessive motion and transfer energy quickly and precisely. You and only you know whether what you have works or doesn't work. The Key in these circumstances is not balance balance balance, its communication communication communication. An open and clear dialogue with both your; Bootfitter and Instructor is the quickest route to sucsess. Make sure the instructor knows where their role starts and finishes and that there is a clear line of communication between Bootfitter and Coach. 
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
However, those i work with and understand our job wouldn't dream of sending me clients with 'Their' idea of what needed to be done. If i had a client come by with their ski instructor, whom asked me to Align cuff left, 1.5degrees laterally and cuff right 2degrees i wouldn't do it. First the foot itself needs to be analysed and supported correctly and then we can take measurements as to correct cuff alignment/canting/balancing this is something i trust myself to do(it's my job) and not an Instructor. The synergy requires a mutual respect, any instructor that sends a Bootfitter instructons is misunderstanding the role of the Bootfitter/doesn't trust their Bootfitter or has a Duff Bootfitter.
... An open and clear dialogue with both your; Bootfitter and Instructor is the quickest route to sucsess. Make sure the instructor knows where their role starts and finishes and that there is a clear line of communication between Bootfitter and Coach. |
Good comments.
I mentioned Bud Heismann in another thread (where CEM was wanting to build a pie juggler). Bud is an instructor and bootfitter (but spends most of his time bootfitting)
One of the things he likes to do is ski with a client and take some video while doing various balance/alignment drills. He'll then try some tests on the hill with shims, again more video, more drills, and feedback from the client. Then when an agreement has been reached on what needs to be done, they come off the hill, and the work gets done that evening.
(sorry to name drop, but I think he does a good job, although it might not be right for everyone)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A lot of this discussion is related to very fine adjustments on boots and perfectly reflecting the needs of the foot that is in it. How much of this sort of material is relevant to everyone and how much really only comes into play at the top end of skiing? I can see that at the really top end or those more expert skiers every change in a boot is probably felt, but for beginners, providing that we have 'average' foot (not really the right term, but I think you'll know what I mean), and a relatively well fitted boot that allows us to apply our basic lessons and develop basic technique in such a way that we come of the slope after a day without being crippled by our boots, how much of this is relevant?
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Megamum, Anyone who skis and has feet, requires proper bootfitting. As well as understanding the need of your skiing(this is where dialogue between client/intructor/bootfitter is important), understanding the function of your feet it vital. Keeping your foot in neutral is the the most important part of your ski setup, from here we are then able to measure other defects/irregulatities, and then adjust using the appropriate tools. The fit and boot selection is the second step.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, I'd say that it makes a difference to top end skiers, and the rest of us. How big a difference based on your current abilty is maybe questionable, but if the boots aren't right, they may well be holding you back from advancing as quickly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, I fell for that for quite a while.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, firm handshake is the kind of hold i am looking for, not a strangle hold from a mass murderer
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Poster: A snowHead
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| easiski wrote: |
| Once they loosen them up a tad they find an enormous difference. |
For example, me! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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i should add that it takes a little while to achieve this, the first few days in a new boot are not the time to be experimenting, let the liners settle down and the boot bed in
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| CEM wrote: |
| i should add that it takes a little while to achieve this, the first few days in a new boot are not the time to be experimenting, let the liners settle down and the boot bed in |
Since getting the zipfits I've found that I can undo the clips a little bit, especially the top two, with feeling like I'm about to fall out of my boots. It was during a lesson with easiski at the EoSB that i really loosed the top two clips and found that I could work with (in?) the boots much more than I usually could.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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easiski, I agree - I wonder if it falls into one of those "ski length=hands above head" perceived understandings except it's taken way longer to die out?
although...
I have yet to visit the zoo and so still have residual pains if I don't break my feet in gently every day. So I start off loosely clipped. If I'm pootling around - I often get to lunch loosely clipped. In January, pootling around, I often get to the end of the day without adjustment: in April less so.
However, if I want to get a bit more aggressive, I need to tighten up. And I don't agree with comments from the fitters at profeet who, while otherwise excellent, prescribed softer boots without ever seeing me ski (no, I wasn't tempted). It's just not true!
I think CEM's "firm handshake" is what I generally seek, with a masonic one for gnarly bits.
I thought this thread was about edging?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
You mean like having clients walking in and asking you to put Disney plates on the toes of their boots?
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Excuse my ignorance, WTFH - what are Disney plates?? 
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I have 5mm Disney plates under both heel and toe.... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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veeeight, 2 short legs?
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FAQ
i don't get many who tell me what to do for the client
