 Poster: A snowHead
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Hope this question makes sense. As you might know I am trying to persuade my father to bin his volkl 177 carvers (which are horrible skis, I borrowed them once) & buy some shorter ones. He is concerned about the stability of shorter carvers at speed - but carvers are designed to be stable at shorter lengths aren't they?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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One of the advances in ski technology in recent years it to be much stiffer, especially torsionally. This makes them less likely to flap around when you're going quickly.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, This makes sense. Just after I posted this question, I read Peter Ross's question about his volkl 185's - which you had replied to - why does he need 185's? or are they a different type of ski?
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rpft, skiers of rob@rar's ability may be ok, but for the rest of us carvers are not particularly stable at speed and do tend to wobble about in an alarming manner at times.
Just forget about schussing - so boring - and carve all the time instead. So much more fun. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jonpim, my dad is a great skier & has been instructing & racing for 50+ years, but he is very old school about the length. I hated his skis & found them to be v. unstable - & love my much shorter carvers - so have been persuading him to buy shorter ones!
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rpft, Get him on a Slalom derived ski.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, like the equipe gc thingy? I have suggested the very thing to him. I have the old equipe 10 3v & love them to bits..
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rpft, but if he's a good skier who is happy with what he's got, why change? P'raps best thing is to take him on holiday and get him to try a rental pair of shorter skis...but although you like 'em, he might not!
How tall is he anyway? 177cm skis are hardly massively long.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The related question from this must be:
Why do skis tend to flap at speed? Is some sort of physics at play etc.....
(this is what I assume happens from this thread)
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| Jonpim wrote: |
| [Just forget about schussing - so boring - and carve all the time instead. So much more fun. |
First class advice. I don't think I ever go in a straight line (always on an edge), but a floppy ski will flop even if it's on an edge. That's an advantage of modern ski construction.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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petemillis, He skied 3 weeks ago with us in the grand massif & wanted to hire - but last week he was in val d'isere & found his skis to be unstable & decided not to hire shorter in case they were less stable?! The reason I suggested shorter skis, was because he had a hip operation last sept. and I thought some speedy little carvers like mine, might just be easier on the hip (knowing his skis to be complete b@rst@ds).
I am interfering I know this, but I just want him to be as happy & comfy as poss. Take my skis, I don't have to work hard & this must be a plus point for someone who has had an op like that.
He is 5'11 & 12 stone.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, He doesn't go in straight lines either -he loves carving - but does other stuff too - you know, from the old days!!! Maybe I have got this wrong - I just thought little ones might be easier on the hip.....
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Megamum, this question dates back a bit. My dad still remembers skiing on atomic 208's. Technically, (please someone shout if I am wrong) you knew if your skis were too short because the tips started drifting about (when I was a child, I went up a size each time this started to happen) - so the correlation between instability & short skis is deeply ingrained. Don't know if this is strictly accurate - but I have always believed it.
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You know it makes sense.
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If he's 5ft 11", how long are his current skis? If he is worried about flappiness, pass on that I am 5ft 10", 13stone and skied a 160cm Fischer SC Slalom ski that was fantastic on piste!
I now ski a Scott Mission in 178cm.......
Cheers,
greg
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rpft, The tips may well drift (I'm sure others will confirm), It's the physical side of the why? that interests me.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, making stuff up as I go along... you could just think of skis as a pair of twangy rulers, as you ski along you're applying forces to them and depending on exactly what you are doing you might drive some oscillations. I feel a gratuitous mention of resonant frequency is appropriate here  I used to experience flapping on some rental skis, but haven't noticed it on my Volkl 5*'s which I believe are rather stiffer than anything I would have rented. You'd expect the resonant frequency to be a function of length and some elastic constant(s) of the ski...
Does that sound appropriately physicsy?
Mrs Hoppo got me this book for Christmas a few years ago:
http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Skiing-Triple-Point/dp/1563963191?tag=amz07b-21
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hoppo, So the 'flex' in questions literally becomes a standing wave flex along the length of the ski that good skiers can feel? Sounds a bit off-putting to me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rpft, it sounds as though he is using these skis at low/small edge angles, which I reckon is perfectly appropriate for someone who has had hip surgery.
Do not forget that short carvers, in order to be stable, have to be put on edge further than something longer. At small edge angles they are LESS stable. You don't have to work as hard, but you can DO the hip extensions required to carve at high edge angles.
You still haven't told us what make and model 177s. Rossi X? Volkl Vseries?
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Megamum, you can't just feel flappiness, but you can hear it as well. You'll definitely know when you're flapping. It really is like a ruler twanging on the edge of a table.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, this, and about every other thread on the subject on this board, conflates several different concepts of 'stability'.
Nobody posting in this thread has yet bothered to distinguish flex oscillations from yaw oscillations from torsional bending (and oscillations), all of which may or not apply to short carvers to make them more or less stable than the gentleman's current skis.
PS I'm guessing that the current skis are not really that old, from the 2001-2004 seasons.
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Megamum, you don't need to be a good skier to feel it! I've experienced it traversing on relatively hard pistes, amplitude probably a couple of centimetres at the tips, a bit disconcerting because if it's flapping around the edges aren't going to be engaging the surface. According to my book the lowest resonant frequencies are in the 16-20Hz region...
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Hoppo,  bedtime reading!?
comprex, thanks for this - makes complete sense - we have just talked about this & he skids quite a lot - particularly since the op - he knows how to carve & he shows me his tramlines frequently (!!) but he chooses to 'short swing' or whatever this is called now - because he has done it for 50 yrs & feels safe doing it! They are volkls - can't remember which one, approx 3 yrs old, gold. They were the first carvers I skied on (after a 4 year baby break) and I loathed them - but to be fair they were probably too long for me in those circumstances.
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comprex, I think yawing wasn't mentioned as Megamum specifically asked about flappy ones.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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petemillis, I see that, I'll allow it came out a bit strong. 
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rpft, I remember them as having very good edgehold on the icey stuff when skied old-style , but anyone used to modern carving skis would probably notice that the binding position was a bit further back than is quite the norm nowadays, notice as 'harder to turn' that is. Volkl at the time was known to have 'long' sizing, so a 170cm Atomic 9'18 skier could easily have fun on the 177 Volkls.
The men's V-series were noticeably heavier than the corresponding women's V-carvers; the women's models were actually a decent 'stealth' bump ski for guys because they were in non-pink white/grey/black or blue colours.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kitenski, Mr. rpft has some 160 fischer slalom skis & they are fantastic. I use them on the dry slope, so slightly knackered now, but still great skis!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| comprex wrote: |
| Nobody posting in this thread has yet bothered to distinguish flex oscillations from yaw oscillations from torsional bending (and oscillations), all of which may or not apply to short carvers to make them more or less stable than the gentleman's current skis. |
I talked about torsional stiffness, which for me is much more important at speed than longitudinal stiffness. My slalom skis (Rossi 9S) are relatively soft along their length, but much stiffer torsionally. I think this is a good balance; not so stiff along their length that they're uncontrollable, but stiff enough from edge to edge that they hold their own when going quick. Other slalom skis I've been on have felt too stiff along their length and have been far too much hard work for me to enjoy for any length of time.
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comprex, You know these skis then? dad's are v. good on ice - but they are more like a carver/alpine cross - not v. waisted & small shovel & tail Thanks for this info!
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, I share that opinon.
I see the trouble in generic discussion of 'flapping' when no statement is made of how edged and how loaded the skis were when the symptoms occured.
rpft, sure, know them well.
They were totally overshadowed in the media by the popularity of the consumer-race P-series and the free ride cult icon G-series. Everyone and their little brother was on p50s or G31/g4s.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Doesn't every brands come with different ski that has different flexes?
Instead of going longer or shorter, maybe better to nail the model that has the right flex at the speed he likes to ski?
| rpft wrote: |
| Jonpim, my dad is a great skier & has been instructing & racing for 50+ years, but he is very old school about the length. I hated his skis & found them to be v. unstable - & love my much shorter carvers - so have been persuading him to buy shorter ones! |
If he's doing short swing turns on the current ski, going shorter will make it even more "turnny"! And all things being equal, shorter skis tend to be less stable, even for carvers.
Find the right model first, then worry about the length.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
Instead of going longer or shorter, maybe better to nail the model that has the right flex at the speed he likes to ski?
[ |
You have a point here - what Rob & comprex have to say above is interesting regarding the flex.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
what Rob & comprex have to say above is interesting regarding the flex.
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I find it totally fascinating too. Although I don't think it even features at the low level I currently ski at, I'm sure that knowledge of what can happen to ski's at speeds, and surfaces will lead to me identifying a problem quicker when I do (hopefully!) reach a decent standard and also help to not be scared if I hear or feel something unusual through the skis.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
Although I don't think it even features at the low level I currently ski at, |
It features at your level more than at any other; it allows you to learn to trust your edges (stiff torsionally) at low learning speeds and widely variable turn shapes (flexible longitudinally).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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comprex, Ah..........I know which thread I'm coming back to re-read tomorrow then 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have just spoken to him & he says he had the bindings mounted for carving. He has scared himself, I think - and I wonder if it is because of the hip that he noticed the flapping - maybe he just expected it before. things are bound to be different.
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I have mentioned in another thread that we changed ski in the middle of a two week trip.
At time when we started skiing about 8 to 9 years ago we were advised to use 170 and 150cm long skis. When freerider skis took off a few years later we purchased 180 and 160cm because our sizes weren't available and it was understood such type of skis should always be longer.
This years we jumped at the chance of a 30% discount and got 160 and 140cm skis because there seems to be the trend skiers are going for shorter skies.
We did find our original cheap pairs were too soft and hence no where as stable as the 2nd pairs of skis which were more expensive than our third pairs plus the boots. Cost wise we started at the very bottom, went to the top of the range thinking better equipment might help and no settled down for somewhere in the middle.
Despite using the cheaper equipment now we prefer the freedom gained in skiing 20cm shorter skis than the stability offered by the longer skis. We have to modify slight our technique to suit though. The shorter skies suit us better as we are not interested in speed or off piste but more on the on-piste control.
We find longer skis do offer better stability and more positive in craving into the snow. This means a better control if we want to stop with the edges. Shorter skis are more manoeurveable so we can trun uphill instead of crave into the snow for a stop. Within reason or the 20cm difference in our case, we think modern shorter skis are equally stable.
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saikee, I ski on 160's, they are fantastic - but the dry slope instructor suggested I go down to 155 for plastic. I agree with you about ski length, I like nifty skis too!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rpft,
get him some GS skis....
they will be more stable and he will be able to turn them if he can skid them.... and they will still carve if he can carve...(won't go into details but a recent survey of colorado resorts suggests you will see about 1-2 skiers a day who can actually do this despite many saying they carve)
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little tiger, GS is the general conclusion, I think - perfect for him! We learned to carve on the dry slope & I agree that it is v. different to stuff you see people do!
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