 brian
brian
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uktrailmonster, I think she'd have bought one anyway but it definitely became a higher priority as without it she'd not have skied again last week.
If you want an argument you'll have to take it up with Dr Caloz in Vissoie, I'm only relaying his thoughts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
.......Unless you attach spikes to your helmet  |
Just for you.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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uktrailmonster, I have actually calculated my relative risk of being killed skiing and from driving, for me skiing about 25 days per year and driving around 30.000 kilometrers per year the chances are approx 5 or 10 x( Cant remember which and cannot be bothered to recalculate) greater driving than skiing. It would seem to make more sense for me to wear a helmet in the car than on the slopes.
petemillis, Your point about alcohol is a very good one I think many more skiers will get brain damage through alcohol than by skiing with or without helmets.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
Safety standards in virtually every activity have improved massively over the last 20 years. Why not take advantage? Your car never had air bags 20 years ago and it's quite possible you never wore seatbelts back then. You survived, so why not continue without? Your logic seems strange to me.
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So, why aren't people wearing helmets in the car? Or are you?
What logic is there to NOT wear a helmet in a car? How about a London taxi?
Until that question got answered, I do think people are over-reaching in insisting helmets in skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abc wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
Safety standards in virtually every activity have improved massively over the last 20 years. Why not take advantage? Your car never had air bags 20 years ago and it's quite possible you never wore seatbelts back then. You survived, so why not continue without? Your logic seems strange to me.
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So, why aren't people wearing helmets in the car? Or are you?
What logic is there to NOT wear a helmet in a car? How about a London taxi?
Until that question got answered, I do think people are over-reaching in insisting helmets in skiing. |
Because people wear safety belts, and cars have head rests and air bags. Cars have safety cages built into them to protect the occupants in crashes. They have bumpers/fenders. They have lots of safety to protect the people inside them. What additional protection does the skier have?
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What I cannot comprehend is the polarisation with the arguements. For instance, I cannot believe that anybody could really believe that wearing a helmet doesn't give added protection. The problem I have with the arguement for wearing a helmet while skiing is that if I were to wear a helmet for skiing, I should also wear one while sailing or walking down the street or even around the home because I have bashed my head more in those situations than I have skiing.
I don't consider myself reckless. I do wear a helmet cycling because I am exposed to a serious risk of head injury and while taking part in motorsport. I always wear a seatbelt and gave up smoking fopr health reasons. However, in life you cannot and do not want to protect against every risk because if you do, you will never leave the house!
FWIW, if I took up snowboarding, I would wear a helmet due to the increased chance of head injury.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
| Quote: |
What additional protection does the skier have?
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He seems to have enough to make him safer than the driver .
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SimonN, see the earlier comments about the difference between walking down the street and skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Because people wear safety belts, and cars have head rests and air bags. Cars have safety cages built into them to protect the occupants in crashes. They have bumpers/fenders. They have lots of safety to protect the people inside them. What additional protection does the skier have? |
The head.
It's "build" to withstand certain amount of impact. Yes, it might fail when the impact is high enough that it's "un-survivable". That's the rational for advocating helmets: the ADDITIONAL protection.
Now, cars has lots of "safety" features build-in also. But there're crashes that are high enough speed, again "un-survivable", which a helmet could very well be useful in providing that same ADDITIONAL protection. But no, we don't need it. We only need it when skiing.
To quote some of the helmet proponents "there's a POTENTIAL a helmet will help"! But not when it comes to cars? And taking some chance walking, running and driving is ok, but taking some chances skiing and biking is not?
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| Quote: |
However, in life you cannot and do not want to protect against every risk because if you do, you will never leave the house!
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You can still bang your head against the corner of the kitchen cabinet!
I totally agree there's no downside to a ski helmet. But what's the downside of wearing a helmet while walking?
Seriously enough, I do believe the day will come when walking down the street without a helmet will trigger the same reaction as skiing without one.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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abc, sorry, I don't see the point of your comments - cars have a lot of head protection built into them. Skiing, you have NONE.
See the difference between having your head protected in a car, and having it unprotected?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
abc, sorry, I don't see the point of your comments - cars have a lot of head protection built into them. Skiing, you have NONE.
See the difference between having your head protected in a car, and having it unprotected? |
My point being a car travels at much higher speed than skiing. So the build in protection can easily be exceeded to the equivalent of hitting the slope with a bare head.
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| Quote: |
cars have a lot of head protection built into them. Skiing, you have NONE.
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And yet I am more likely to be killed in my car doesn't seem a very logical reason to wear the helmet on the slopes and not in the car.
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You know it makes sense.
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| abc wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
abc, sorry, I don't see the point of your comments - cars have a lot of head protection built into them. Skiing, you have NONE.
See the difference between having your head protected in a car, and having it unprotected? |
My point being a car travels at much higher speed than skiing. So the build in protection can easily be exceeded to the equivalent of hitting the slope with a bare head. |
Please, explain this further, I don't understand.
In a car, the head rest is positioned just behind the head. The safety belt holds the body close to the seat. The airbags provide momentary support to prevent rag-dolling.
In skiing, what protection at all is there in a 30mph crash?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| SimonN wrote: |
| What I cannot comprehend is the polarisation with the arguements........... |
There does seem to be an almost evangelistic fervour amongst those favouring helmets.. Having bought one, I have become sceptical again, myself.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 18-04-07 15:14; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Quote: |
cars have a lot of head protection built into them. Skiing, you have NONE.
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And yet I am more likely to be killed in my car doesn't seem a very logical reason to wear the helmet on the slopes and not in the car. |
Are you more likely to bang your head and get a bruise in your car, or when skiing?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What airbag? Do all taxies have airbag?
Wait a minute, I don't seem to remember where the headrest is in the center back seat is either.
Perhaps I'm living in a third world country or some medival village. Most cars I see these days still only have airbags in the front...
But so far, I haven't seen anyone wearing helmets sitting in the back seat of any car/taxi. But perhaps I'm not looking at the right car (the one you're in?)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BTW, what's the airbag designed to protect? 100km/hr crash?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Are you more likely to bang your head and get a bruise in your car, or when skiing?
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I've never done either but I am not really bothered about a minor bang on the head it will probably teach me something. Road traffic accidents are the leading cause of head injuries. Statistics indicate that I am far more likely to suffer death in a car than by skiing as severe head injury probaly roughly parallels death I think it likely that I am more likely to suffer a severe head injury driving than skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| Quote: |
cars have a lot of head protection built into them. Skiing, you have NONE.
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And yet I am more likely to be killed in my car doesn't seem a very logical reason to wear the helmet on the slopes and not in the car. |
Are you more likely to bang your head and get a bruise in your car, or when skiing? |
Most likely in the process of entering a car for sure.
So far I've not bang my head while driving, nor when skiing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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This is a side note.
Since I wear a helmet while cycling. I do keep my helmet on AFTER the biking ride through the whole process of loading up the bike in the car and putting away all the items. I found I've been spared a few bangs and scratches from hitting the car door and the trunk (boot) lid while loading the bike in.
I'm also trying to get into the habit of putting my helmet on BEFORE starting to unload the bike.
None of those "bangs" are life-threatening. But then again, there's no down side that I can see.
Perhaps I should start advocating all skiers should put on their ski helmet the moment they get out of bed? 
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| abc wrote: |
Perhaps I'm living in a third world country or some medival village. Most cars I see these days still only have airbags in the front...
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Um, sounds like it.
I think my car has 8 airbags (including 2 specifically for the rear passengers)
It also has seat belts for 4 people, and head rests for 4 people.
The airbags are designed to deploy above a certain speed (I think it's about 10mph), and are a secondary restraint system. Not a primary.
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I wear a helmet boarding because the type of fall I experience (slide on back or face plant and tumble on front) means I bang my head often so it warrants wearing one, I do not wear a helmet riding my bike because I do not bang my head often. For me bike riding must be a bit like skiing, I could land on my head and kill myself quite easily but I do not have that everyday whacking of my head that would knock some sense in to me 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sod car drivers .. its pedestrians that need crash helmets.. especially kids ..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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abc, rear airbags are an optional extra on my car, a rear centre head restraint is standard. It wasn't that long ago when rear seatbelts were optional or non-existent. The main reason I don't wear a helmet in the car is because they mess my hair up. Simple as that really. Otherwise I probably would. Many deaths in cars are due to people not wearing seatbelts or not having air bags fitted.
I don't bang my head often skiing (perhaps whacked it 4 or 5 times in 25 years), but I still wear a helmet. I haven't had a serious car crash in 39 years, but I still wear a seatbelt and have airbags, head restraints etc fitted. I've banged my head a number of times on foot (one concussion) but I don't consider it practical or desirable to wear a helmet 24/7. But I do consider myself at higher instantaneous risk of a head injury when skiing, compared to walking, so I wear a helmet. Same goes for biking.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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uktrailmonster, based on exactly the same reasoning I do not wear a helmet cycling
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| Quote: |
The airbags are designed to deploy above a certain speed
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Tis based on acceleration (g's) Mr. Fox, not speed. So if you were stationary at the traffic lights, and someone came head on/side on into you, the balloons would still deploy.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Quote: |
The airbags are designed to deploy above a certain speed
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Tis based on acceleration (g's) Mr. Fox, not speed. So if you were stationary at the traffic lights, and someone came head on/side on into you, the balloons would still deploy. |
I sit corrected!
(are the dual volume ones speed activated?)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| The main reason I don't wear a helmet in the car is because they mess my hair up. |
Same here. That, and the roof of my car is pretty low.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| I've banged my head a number of times on foot (one concussion) but I don't consider it practical or desirable to wear a helmet 24/7. But I do consider myself at higher instantaneous risk of a head injury when skiing, compared to walking, so I wear a helmet. Same goes for biking. |
Despite banging your head while on foot (and one concussion), you still "believe" you're at greater risk of head injury skiing?
However, I have no problem of anyone NOT wearing helmet while walking simply because they feel it's not desirable.
Same goes for skiing or biking. Anyone may choose to wear a helmet or not depending on their perceived desirability. The risk involved in walking and driving vs skiing and cycling is not hugely different. However, the desirability differs considerably.
At least in today's culture and fashion, walking and driving with a helmet is consider "extremely odd". Therefore, un-desirable. But there was a time when cycling with a helmet was considered "very odd" too. Not any more. Skiing with a helmet, is in that transitional stage from "odd" to "normal".
There're a large number of skier who find a ski helmet very desirable, myself included. The reason for that "desirability" (if there's such a word) may differ though. Some of us like the warmth, the ease of fitting goggle. Others like the protection from minor bangs and scrapes. Still others for the potential protection from major head trama. There're still large number of skier who doesn't consider helmet any more desirable than a hat.
The assumption that skier who chooses NOT to wear a helmet while skiing must be ignorant of the risk is a mis-conception. Because the same logic would likely to indicate NOT wearing a helmet while walking and driving are equally ignorant of the risk as well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is rather an "epic" argument isn't it. Seem to be a lot of straw man points being created prior to being knocked down.
My perspective on this.
I started wearing a helmet last year primarily for dry-slope racing, as a) it's prefereable to getting a pole in the face and b) it's mandatory. I've also started using it on snow, initially quite reluctantly, primarily because guides/instructors were strongly advising it. I now ski it in almost all the time.
I have no belief it would save my life, but do believe it will save cuts, bruises and bumps. I ski pretty aggressively, and fall over regularly (now down to probably average 1/day, and 1 biggish one /week). In all that time I've had plenty of headplants but never had a severe bang to the head (i.e. never had anything close to concussion). Maybe I'm just lucky, but if the danger were that severe I'm sure I'd have had a bad one in 30ish weeks skiing. Once (2nd week skiing) I did land bigtime on my ear and consider myself pretty lucky not to have broken my neck, but a helmet would not have helped that (and maybe even made it worse). The most severe injuries I've had were actually while wearing the helmet, a cut eye needing stitches when the helmet edge dug into my forehead (I've since modified that offending edge), or other occasions when faceplanting at speed and the helmet pushed my goggles into my face.
I have also noticed different reactions when skiing with and without a helmet. When not wearing a helment, my natural reaction is to move my head to avoid it cracking on anything, rolling with the fall to minimise impact. When wearing the helmet though, the reaction is to allow the helmet to take the impact, and shield some other part of my body. This may also be partly due to reduced head mobility (increased inertia with wearing the helmet) and reduced peripheral awareness.
People have mentioned helmet-wearing as having no downsides, but I disagree.
a) As mine is a race helmet it has full sides (to allow screwing in faceguards), so covers the ears. Hence it's quite difficult to hear anything when wearing it, and awareness of what's going on behind you is definitely reduced. I do agree though that this is not/less of an issue with the more freeride oriented helmets.
b) It's definitely much hotter than not wearing a helmet.
c) Earlier there was mention of less steaming up - that is definitely not the case for me. I've had a nightmare this year with goggles steaming up. I now find even sunglasses steam up, whereas I've never had that problem when not wearing a helmet.
d) the above-mentioned cuts to my face caused by the helmet pushing the goggles into my face, whereas without the helmet they would probably have just slid off the top of my head.
So why do I wear a helmet? My skiing is now primarily in more severe terrain where the dangers are not always visible - submerged rocks are a fact of life, and the consequences of a fall in an inopportune place are becoming more substantial. I'm also getting older and I now notice that bruises take significantly longer to heal than previously. So the areas where I think helmets are of benefit are:
a) there is protection against bruises in the minor falls that are part of everyday life, and it's more comfortable wiping snow off a helmet than getting it out of your hair
b) there is always the chance that there's a rock hiding under the snow, as in the circumstances found by Mrs brian, which will cause deeper cuts and a potential broken skull if you hit it unfortunately. I doubt the helmet will prevent a life-terminating injury, but it could convert a holiday-terminating one into just another spill.
BTW, as I have it now (again because of dry-slope racing), I now also usually wear body armour for a fair bit of my skiing. If I know I'm going to have an easy day in the sun I won't put it on (as it's pretty hot), but otherwise it mostly goes on in place of my mid-layer.
To finish on a subtle point - I'm not skiing faster than I would otherwise do because I have the helmet/armour, but I'm starting to get a bit concerned about what may happen if I screw up (or as recently happened, the equipment fails) at an inopportune moment and am using that as a precautions to mitigate the bad effects of screwing up when skiing the terrain/speed I want to ski.
PS. I do not wear a helment when push-biking (road only). In approx 40 years of cycling around towns (probably on average once every two days over that period) I've been knocked off once (aged about 17 - resulting in badly bent crank and slightly sore ankle), forced to take evasive action resulting in a skid/fall (2 months ago), and forced off the road about 4 or 5 times. Maybe once in all that time my head has touched the road surface. While a cycling helmet doesn't restrict peripheral vision or hearing, I still feel a greater peripheral awareness when cycling without a helmet which is more important to me in avoiding accidents than any benefit in surviving a hypothetical accident.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| abc wrote: |
Despite banging your head while on foot (and one concussion), you still "believe" you're at greater risk of head injury skiing?
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I said instantaneous risk ie. the risk of smacking my head while I'm actually skiing is higher than the risk when I'm actually walking. You are looking at total overall risk which is quite different. By your argument you can consider walking to be a relatively dangerous activity simply due to the high percentage of time doing it. Which is ridiculous.
| abc wrote: |
The assumption that skier who chooses NOT to wear a helmet while skiing must be ignorant of the risk is a mis-conception. Because the same logic would likely to indicate NOT wearing a helmet while walking and driving are equally ignorant of the risk as well. |
I never assumed that. Some people choose to take more risks than others, some understand those risks, some don't. No assumption on my part either way.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GrahamN, I consider item b) in your list of downsides as a positive thing. But I only ski when it's fairly cold.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
(are the dual volume ones speed activated?)
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Few of them use speed alone as a factor - sensor technology is sufficiently advanced (pre crash sensors etc.) that vehicle speed alone is hugely inaccurate, although the primary trigger for the 1st stage is still acceleration. Other factors in the algorithm include crash severity, occupant position, seatbelt use/non-use, child seat presence, weight, seat belt tension etc.
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By your argument you can consider walking to be a relatively dangerous activity simply due to the high percentage of time doing it. Which is ridiculous.
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What's so rediculous about it?
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It's ridiculous because walking is not as inherently dangerous as skiing, biking, or pretty much any other sport where you travel at a higher speed without any form of external protection.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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veeeight, I very much doubt any air bags are speed activated. They all use accelerometers as far as I'm aware.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| It's ridiculous because walking is not as inherently dangerous as skiing, biking, or pretty much any other sport where you travel at a higher speed without any form of external protection. |
Walking might not involve very high speed but it's not without danger. Slipping on wet or icy surface is the one that comes to mind, since I know of quite a few people breaking their leg/hip/skull on such slips.
Despite the lack of speed, the frequency of it more than make up for it.
I've not seen any data comparing frequency and severity of falls between skiing and walking. Assuming properly normailized (per person per year?), it wouldn't surprise me that walking be more dangerous than skiing, especially when it comes to "bang to the head".
Per skier per unit time, skiing could quite possibly be more dangerous than walking. But would that simply suggest we should wear our helmets more often, such as walking in the ski resort (where there's plenty of icy patches)?
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FAQ
