 Poster: A snowHead
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Running on a bit from the 'tipping' thread, it strikes me that the average ski instructor obviously does not get the lions share of the fee we pay for instruction.
I am sure there are many instructors on this forum, so what service does an instructor/guide actually get from a ski school (apart from the obvious work), or more importantly what service am I paying for in excess of what the instructor gets paid (who incidentally seems to do all the hard work).
My only experience is approaching someone at a desk or in a kiosk, booking a few lessons and having someone turn up at the designated time.
I am aware of pre set courses like McNab snowboarding that seem good, also some North America courses seem to be like this. Similarly independents like Easiski thankfully provide a great service and that personal touch 
Are instructors paid a salary for the season or do they just get paid when they work, who is responsible for insurance, etc. Do you walk around with your mobile as a constant companion waiting for the next call or are you full time employed. Is there preferential treatment in allocating clients (e.g. Brit clients in US not favoured)
This is a world in which i am ignorant so this is a genuine post to avoid embarrassment when dealing with ski schools (such as my lack of knowledge of the tipping regime in north America)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rayscoops, A ski school will provide booking and secretarial service, allocation of lessons, and in some cases uniform and skipass. They should provide things like gates for race training, drills, minibus for clients, those little "hat" thingies for beginners slalom courses and so on. There will also be advertising costs.
It's not the same everywhere, but as far as I know all ski teachers are paid per hour when they work and only then. They may (in some cases) get subsidised housing. French ski schools are all collectives so that every permanent member of the collective gets to vote on who runs the school, and on any major expenditure. They will get a profit share at the end of the season in addition to receiving an hourly wage during the season. There will be a pecking order, most likely on length of service, but it may also be affected by other disciplines taught, languages spoken and so on. Stagiares are not allowed to be "permanent" and will not get a profit share at the end of the season, as they would not be co-owners (effectively) of the school. You don't have to buy in BTW.
As far as I can see many of the "British" schools are wholly owned by one person or a company, so they just employ instructors to do just that, end of story. I can't speak for the N. American/Canadian systems, but I'm sure Veeeight can elucidate in due course, but I know that they all work for the company that runs everything, so I guess they're just employed as per the Brit schools in france.
In Scotland we were just paid an hourly rate - end of story. I hope this helps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, Is it true that the ESF in each village is 'franchise' which the owner of the 'franchise' can rent out to whoever want's to operate under the esf banner in that location?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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boredsurfin, The ESF is sort of like MacDonalds. Each ESF in each village is actually an independent ski school working under the ESF banner, and I think they pay dues to the Head Office etc. this is why they can vary so much.
The Association for the independent ski schools and instructors (SIMS) is currently taking the ESF to court to stop them using the name Ecole du Ski Francais, as this implies an officiality which doesn't exist. It will be interesting to see what happens 5 years down the line.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, are the ski hire 'chain' shops (Sport 2000? for eaxample) similarly franchises or are they one big company. If I hire in Tignes and bust a binding in Val Des, for example, can I pop into the same 'chain' but different shop to get it fixed for free? This actually did happen to me but I got the bus back to Tignes and had the binding fixed in my actual hire shop rather than try a similar named shop in Val.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rayscoops, I think in the same ski region chain shops have an arrangement to hire, change or return skis in different shops. This is the case in St Anton and the Gastein valley anyway. It's normally advertised ontheir brochures.
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Peter Ross, damn, i could have saved the bus fare 
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rayscoops, although it could be different in Tignes but that's the way in worked in Sport 2000 and Intersport in St Anton
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rayscoops, Here, they'll help each other out, but it may not be the same everywhere. SZK knows more about this than any of the rest of us as he's actively involved in the system.
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Having only taught in the UK on dry slopes I can only talk about their costings. I have worked at Wycombe Summit and Sheffield Ski Village. I have done both group lessons and privates at both of these centres and the price the client pays to what the instructor actually gets varies quite a bit.
For example at Sheffield currently a group lesson will cost you £24 for 90 mins and a private lesson will cost £45 for 1 hour yet the instructor (whether he is ASSI or BASI qualified) gets £5.75 per hour. The reason they don't pay very much is that the instructors don't need to teach to as high a standard cos of the limits of the slope, so they don't need to pay them as much. I can't see the administration cost being so high as to allow for that sort of difference in money.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stocky, sounds harsh, just becasue you are teaching beginners you get a smaller slice of the pie
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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OK the Canadian perspective.
Here in WB the ski school is the largest in the North American continent, but also possibly the largest ski school in the world too (approx 1500 ski instructors, not counting snowboard instructors).
What do we get?
Loan on a uniform for the season
Dual mountain ski pass
Discount on meals when working
Morning training every morning for 1.5 hours with Level4 trainers
Comprehensive full day training on your days off available (steeps, bumps, race clinings etc.)
Organised department parties from time to time
We get paid an hourly rate, ONLY when we work. No work, no pay. The hourly rate is complicated, is made up of elements of basic pay, teaching pay, group pay, private request pay, local teaching experience, other resort teaching experience, other relevant qualifications (eg; avalanche), additional languages etc. But roughly a rookie to 2 year old instructor can expect CAN$9 to CAN$13 per hour, most folks withing the Standard Distribution will earn between CAN$12 and CAN$18 per hour, and the top certs/minority will earn CAN$18-CAN$25 per hour.
There is also a ranking order as to who gets work first, and for which clients.
And then there are your survival/living costs. Equipment - for me, boots and 2 pairs of skis per season. Base grind every 4 weeks, tune ever 10 days approx.
If we fall sick, or are injured, no work = no pay.
Eating, evening meals, transportation, monthly bus pass, accommodation, in the region of CAN$600 per month for a shared room going up to CAN$1500 per month in the valley.
Considering that the average top cert will spend over CAN$20,000 for his/her training and development and maybe say 8 years of their life getting there, the hourly rewards are miniscule.
So you can hopefully see that a tip, goes a long way here.
As for pricing, as this is a international destination resort, prices for lessons are priced according to market demand. So a full day private lesson is in the region of CAN$590, of which the instructor may only see CAN$80. 
Remember - there are plenty of people willing to pay that (and more) for a private lesson, we virtually sold out of private lessons (500+) Christmas week, and also remember that you can have up to 5 in a private lesson. Some people book me for a whole day just to have breakfast, shop, lunch, tour the mountains, then dinner. Some people book me just to show them the best hidden spots and cut lift lines. Some actually want to improve!
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 23-03-07 15:58; edited 3 times in total
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veeeight, it is good to know this sort of stuff, it puts things in to perspective. One question, as there are different levels of experience/certification between the instructors, can a client specify how experienced/certified an instructor they want for thier lesson? or does the 'desk' make a valued judgement on what level of instruction is needed based on the ski level/experience of the prospective client ?
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You know it makes sense.
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The booking system that the "desk" uses knows what certification/experience any instructor has, and what level they can teach up to. Also the department supervisor sorts out allocations at the start of the session too, and he/she has plenty of experience matching clients to pros.
You can of course request a full cert, but bear in mind:
i) In my expereince this usually is the client over-stating their ability
ii) If you request a CSIA L4 - out of a membership of 23,000 Canadian certified instructors worldwide - only around 200 of those are CSIA L4's. Of which around 70 are in WhistlerBlackcomb....... the rest are retired, coach race programs, train, end up being promoted to being supervisors/managers, are disillusioned, very few L4's actually teach the public.
In many other resorts a CSIA L4 is only a myth, they don't realise they actually exist.....
iii) In some countries there are no different levels of certification. In Italy there is "Maestro di Sci", Germany has "Statliche".
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 23-03-07 15:35; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
at Sheffield currently a group lesson will cost you £24 for 90 mins and a private lesson will cost £45 for 1 hour yet the instructor (whether he is ASSI or BASI qualified) gets £5.75 per hour.
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I wonder how the overall finances of operating a dry slope stack up? There are presumably big power costs, as well as routine maintenance etc. Instructor time is probably a fairly minor cost. Is anyone making a killing? Probably not, I guess. On the other hand the huge gap quoted by veeeight, seems much harder to justify as the ski school presumably doesn't have to run the lifts and the overhead costs of a small office and a receptionist and phone line are minimal. Would a Canadian instructor get a "profit share" at the end of the season? Or are a few people making a killing? Is there much of a market in independent ski teachers who get to keep the huge sums being paid by customers? I can quite see that tips are pretty essential for survival for a ski instructor, but if I was paying almost $600 for a day's lesson I would feel a bit disinclined to give a generous tip on top.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| overhead costs of a small office and a receptionist and phone line are minimal. |
You must be joking. It's a mamoth operation here in WB. Ski school sales points all over the village, every hotel conceirge has a link to a scheduller, we have so many different products/programs, Adults, Groups, Supergroups, Esprit, Dave Murray, Extremely Canadian, Dempsey, Base Camp, International Academy, Peak Leaders, Corporates, Yes, Summit Sessions, Roxy, Privates, Whistler Minis, Whistler Kids, Ride Tribe Teen programs, Schools, Adventure Camps, Park n Pipe, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Multiply that by 3 locations (Blackcomb, Whistler, Creekside) and then by 2 (Base, Mountain Top) and you begin to see just how many departments we have. I haven;t even listed any of the snowboard programs. Supervisors located in many of the hotels (Four Seasons, Chateau Whistler etc.) to allocate private bookings etc. On an average busy day here in WB we see 22,000 to 29,000 skiers/boarders on that hill, of which a sizeable number are in lessons.
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| Would a Canadian instructor get a "profit share" at the end of the season? |
No.
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| I can quite see that tips are pretty essential for survival for a ski instructor, but if I was paying almost $600 for a day's lesson I would feel a bit disinclined to give a generous tip on top. |
Here's my (free) tip as a guideline if you're in a quandry about to tip or not.
i) Did you enjoy yourself and have fun?
ii) Did we renew or generate a spark and passion for the sport?
iii) Did we challenge you, take you out of your comfort zone, and create some memories for you?
iii) Did we give you enough tools for you to change your skiing for the better?
If the answer is yes to all 4 then we have done more than (no disrespect meant) your waiter or hairdresser, as doing what it says on the tin to us is just standard instruction. Not to tip if all those criteria were met is just *************. (Just my opinion). 
Anyway. I'll stop there incase easiski calls me "uncommonly tactful" again! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof, Thanks for that link, a most interesting article, do please keep us informed of developments. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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pam w, I think tips have well and truly been debated on another thread 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, thanks for the link as I've been busy lately and not looked into PisteHors for far too long!
Re the Mafia thing: Crystal holidays wanted to use the European Ski school for all their lessons - they were told (baldly) that if they didn't put at least half their business with the ESF they wouldn't be able to rent the chalets they wanted to in town ... Jeremy Edwards and the European ski school have had to offically close their training programme under the new rules - the ESI St Christophe are now "employing" the ESS trainees! We have had several mayors who have been personally involved with the ESF and they have an office in the Tourist Office building right opposite said TO! There are approx 200 ESF instructors here and approx 50-60 "others". Many of the older priority channels still read "priorité à l'école du ski des Deux Alpes" and not "aux écoles" Not a level playing field - nowhere near - it'll be interesting to see what happens in the courts, but the current minister for sport is a big ESF fan ........
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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veeeight, are you saying that the costs of the booking lines etc. are so great that they justify the instructors being paid only 14% of the cost of the day's private lesson? I'm sure that French instructors, whatever school they are with, get a much higher proportion that that. Otherwise I have just had a two hour lesson with an instructor (not ESF!)who got paid only 7 euros for it.
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No thats not what I'm saying.
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pam w,
In retail 14% of sales for staff cost is actually quite a high proportion. Now obviously there is the cost of the goods to be sold that has to come outof it, which Ski School doesn't have, but looking at the size of the operation that veeeight, described that's a massive overhead. I personally think that Instructors, as professionals, should get more but I can see why, as a "regular employee" they get the same as say a sales assistant. The point about hairdressers is a different one - many of them receive up to 50% of the price of the service, so a £35 haircut in a 45 minutes appointment means the stylist gets at least £15 for it plus a small basic wage (but I still tip).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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holidayloverxx, But they are not "regular employees" - no sick pay, no holiday, no holiday pay. the school only pay them when they work - good wheeze isn't it?
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easiski,
even more reason why they should be paid more - it's certainly a vocation! When I was in retail I wanted to squeeze profit, but not at the expense of employees or by fleecing the customer.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| easiski wrote: |
| It's not the same everywhere, but as far as I know all ski teachers are paid per hour when they work and only then. They may (in some cases) get subsidised housing. |
I've come across one or two in Austria where the instructors are salaried. They are contracted to work a certain number of hours per week, and if there is no instructing to be done, they get involved in piste management, snow clearing etc.
It's been great from my point of view working with school groups, as the instructors are flexible over lesson times, and aren't rushing off to fit in a private lesson during lunch time.
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They do get lift pass for the whole season though.
I'm surprise WB instructors need to pay for their own ski. The instructor I spoke to at Killington (some years back) got one pair of free ski each year! His only complain? He basically "finish" that ski in one season. So it's not a net benefit, just balancing out the expense.
He teaches mountain biking in the summer and also gets a new bike each year. Since bikes don't wear out as fast as skis, he gets to sell the one year old bike for a nice change.
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You know it makes sense.
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abc, We have to pay for our own liftpasses here (although the ESF and ESI don't have to pay until Feb when the bank balance is better). We all get deals on skis, boots etc with our union membership (or BASI) but it's still cost rice + VAT. I get about 3 years out of a pair of skis - a new pair every year would be sooooo 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, I was commenting solely on veeeight's post regarding the arrangement in WB. In that case, the instructors gets lift pass and other benefits for free upfront.
If I remember correctly, someone mentinoed the French instructors do get their share of the ski school's profit. If so, not providing lift pass would simply means a correspondingly larger sum at the end of the season.
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Poster: A snowHead
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abc, Yes - but only the permanents get the share - the temporaires or stagiares don't get it. Of course in Whistler it's just one company operating everything if I understand it correctly.
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FAQ
